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Why use D&D for a Simulationist style Game?
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<blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 6354065" data-attributes="member: 37579"><p>That was by intent. </p><p>You need to step away from looking at roleplaying games to see more diversity and range between simulation/abstraction. </p><p></p><p></p><p>You can certainly play gamist, hiding behind cover for the bonuses. But the point is in D&D, even the most gamist and abstract versions, you can make choices based on the narrative that will have some mechanical effect.</p><p>In a non-RPG, if you try to take an action not covered by the rules (such as hiding behind partial cover in a game that only differentiates between line-of-sight and non-LOS) then the cover grants no benefit. You can never gain a benefit for something not in the rules. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This really comes down to what "simulation" means. Is it the emulation of reality, or simply the representation of some story or concept of the game. </p><p>The later definition is pretty darn liberal as it means chess is a sim (two armies fighting) and only games like poker or backgammon would be non-sim. </p><p></p><p>The difference between narrative of most games and RPGs is that in the former it's just an overlay. MtG would work just as well if you replaced all the fluff with science fiction terms and the summoned monsters with warping in fleets. There's no connection between the mechanics and the gameplay. Dissociative mechanics some would say. But also, nothing in the narrative can ever have any affect on the game. </p><p>Which is the catch. The narrative in an RPG can influence the mechanics. Not just in the creation of new rules but in situational events. Despite the story of two dueling wizards, you cannot do something like walk up to your rival wizard and just kick them in the bollocks. If there is a wizard duel in D&D you are not limited by the rules and can do just that, or target the ground beneath the wizard's feat dropping them down, or distract the wizard by revealing you slept with her husband last night, or make an offering of peace and work out your grievances without magical combat.</p><p></p><p>Because the narrative can affect the game, all RPGs are inherently much more sim than other games.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This ignores my first point about apples to apples. Which was the more important part of my first post. </p><p>The quote the OP references compares D&D to chess, while the OP compares D&D to GURPs. The two samplings are so different that the results of the comparison are useless.</p><p></p><p>You go right to a comparison between RPGs, picking the most abstract version of D&D to compare with more sim games. Which is a very narrow sampling. And yes, D&D will seem less sim than many other RPGs while being more sim than other select RPGs. </p><p>But when you compare D&D to other types of game it is incredibly sim.</p><p></p><p>Really, D&D is somewhere in the middle in terms of sim. And often has the flexibility to play it more sim or more abstract depending on the DM.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jester David, post: 6354065, member: 37579"] That was by intent. You need to step away from looking at roleplaying games to see more diversity and range between simulation/abstraction. You can certainly play gamist, hiding behind cover for the bonuses. But the point is in D&D, even the most gamist and abstract versions, you can make choices based on the narrative that will have some mechanical effect. In a non-RPG, if you try to take an action not covered by the rules (such as hiding behind partial cover in a game that only differentiates between line-of-sight and non-LOS) then the cover grants no benefit. You can never gain a benefit for something not in the rules. This really comes down to what "simulation" means. Is it the emulation of reality, or simply the representation of some story or concept of the game. The later definition is pretty darn liberal as it means chess is a sim (two armies fighting) and only games like poker or backgammon would be non-sim. The difference between narrative of most games and RPGs is that in the former it's just an overlay. MtG would work just as well if you replaced all the fluff with science fiction terms and the summoned monsters with warping in fleets. There's no connection between the mechanics and the gameplay. Dissociative mechanics some would say. But also, nothing in the narrative can ever have any affect on the game. Which is the catch. The narrative in an RPG can influence the mechanics. Not just in the creation of new rules but in situational events. Despite the story of two dueling wizards, you cannot do something like walk up to your rival wizard and just kick them in the bollocks. If there is a wizard duel in D&D you are not limited by the rules and can do just that, or target the ground beneath the wizard's feat dropping them down, or distract the wizard by revealing you slept with her husband last night, or make an offering of peace and work out your grievances without magical combat. Because the narrative can affect the game, all RPGs are inherently much more sim than other games. This ignores my first point about apples to apples. Which was the more important part of my first post. The quote the OP references compares D&D to chess, while the OP compares D&D to GURPs. The two samplings are so different that the results of the comparison are useless. You go right to a comparison between RPGs, picking the most abstract version of D&D to compare with more sim games. Which is a very narrow sampling. And yes, D&D will seem less sim than many other RPGs while being more sim than other select RPGs. But when you compare D&D to other types of game it is incredibly sim. Really, D&D is somewhere in the middle in terms of sim. And often has the flexibility to play it more sim or more abstract depending on the DM. [/QUOTE]
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