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<blockquote data-quote="Anthtriel" data-source="post: 3872473" data-attributes="member: 13764">Well, there is no good reason why all undead should have those two anyway, and I suspect they won't in 4E.Taking the con score away from undead created all kinds of minor annoying effects, like high level undead having very few HP. It's much more sensible to make them immune to tiring and the like and argue that con score for undead describes their toughness.Fantasy sometimes has undead being fooled by illusion or enchantments, especially vampires, so I see no reason why they should be completely immune.&nbsp;The idea would be to give them very minor, if any benefits at first. If there are minor advantages, they would be balanced against minor (or not so minor) disadvantages like needing to consume blood and a penalty when acting in sunlight.A PC wouldn't have to &quot;give in&quot; to his inner monster for more vampire abilities, you could just argue his curse gets stronger. The whole thing would need to be very optional of course, and you probably don't want to have PCs who let themselves get infected or killed on purpose.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Anthtriel, post: 3872473, member: 13764"] Well, there is no good reason why all undead should have those two anyway, and I suspect they won't in 4E. Taking the con score away from undead created all kinds of minor annoying effects, like high level undead having very few HP. It's much more sensible to make them immune to tiring and the like and argue that con score for undead describes their toughness. Fantasy sometimes has undead being fooled by illusion or enchantments, especially vampires, so I see no reason why they should be completely immune. The idea would be to give them very minor, if any benefits at first. If there are minor advantages, they would be balanced against minor (or not so minor) disadvantages like needing to consume blood and a penalty when acting in sunlight. A PC wouldn't have to "give in" to his inner monster for more vampire abilities, you could just argue his curse gets stronger. The whole thing would need to be very optional of course, and you probably don't want to have PCs who let themselves get infected or killed on purpose. [/QUOTE]

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