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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 4992531" data-attributes="member: 18280">Did I say it was?I said that if Batman's victory (whatever victory conditions you like) is not in question, then there is no game.&nbsp; A game only exists when there are unknown variables that affect the outcome, regardless of what the victory conditions may be.&quot;[T]he Joker might get away&quot;, &quot;the Joker might kill her&quot;, and &quot;the Joker will kill a bunch of people, laugh about it, and get away scot-free&quot; are all ways by which Batman might fail, as you yourself note.&nbsp; So long as this is true, victory is not assured, and there can be a game (rather than just storytelling).Nobody dies in Monopoly; Monopoly is still a game.&nbsp; Games rely upon the existence of unknown variables (even if those variables have no element of chance, such as an opponent's moves in a game of chess) that leave the conclusion (victory conditions) in doubt.&nbsp; They do not rely, AFAICT, upon what the victory conditions are.&nbsp; In the cooperative game, Bus Depot Diner, for example, the victory conditions are &quot;Feed as many people as you can before the bus leaves the depot; try to do better than your previous best score&quot;.(specific games might rely on specific victory or loss conditions, such as checkmate in chess, obviously.)RC</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 4992531, member: 18280"] Did I say it was? I said that if Batman's victory (whatever victory conditions you like) is not in question, then there is no game. A game only exists when there are unknown variables that affect the outcome, regardless of what the victory conditions may be. "[T]he Joker might get away", "the Joker might kill her", and "the Joker will kill a bunch of people, laugh about it, and get away scot-free" are all ways by which Batman might fail, as you yourself note. So long as this is true, victory is not assured, and there can be a game (rather than just storytelling). Nobody dies in Monopoly; Monopoly is still a game. Games rely upon the existence of unknown variables (even if those variables have no element of chance, such as an opponent's moves in a game of chess) that leave the conclusion (victory conditions) in doubt. They do not rely, AFAICT, upon what the victory conditions are. In the cooperative game, Bus Depot Diner, for example, the victory conditions are "Feed as many people as you can before the bus leaves the depot; try to do better than your previous best score". ([i][b]specific games[/b][/i][b][/b] might rely on specific victory or loss conditions, such as checkmate in chess, obviously.) RC [/QUOTE]

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