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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 4996327" data-attributes="member: 18280">d'oh!&nbsp; EDIT:&nbsp; Fixed.&nbsp; Thanks.Pretend for a moment that you accept my splitting out of game and framework.&nbsp; Do you still object?After all, if you say &quot;Get the high score&quot; is not part of the Pac Man game, I could equally say &quot;getting checkmate&quot; is not part of chess.&nbsp; The game does not reward you in any way for getting checkmate (other than perhaps your winning I suppose, but, that's not a requirement).&nbsp; If you agree that The &quot;framework&quot; of pacman is that you will endlessly circle around the board, chomping dots until you lose.&nbsp; That's it.&nbsp; That is 100% known at the beginning of the game.and that your goal is to last as long as you can, doing as well as you can (what score measures), then the outcome of the goal is not known at the beginning of the game.&nbsp; Only the framework is.Again, though, if you accept a priori that &quot;the resolution of the game&quot; means how the goals of the game are resolved, and the goal of pac man is &quot;last as long as you can, doing as well as you can&quot;, do you still deny that the the resolution must be affected by the players?IOW, if in Pac Man the goal is to last as long as you can, it is not a game if the resolution of that goal is based on a random timer that you cannot affect.BTW, in your SA game example, if the goal is &quot;Keep the game going as long as you can&quot;, then offering mechanics that end the game become tantamount to agreeing that one player can walk away from a chess game in media res.&nbsp; Which is always true, for any game.&nbsp; Victory conditions in D&amp;D (for example) relate to scenarios.&nbsp; Any given session of D&amp;D might have a number of victory conditions, often selected by the players (goals) and sometimes imposed by the DM.&nbsp; In the original game, the victory conditions were &quot;survive&quot;, &quot;explore&quot;, and &quot;get treasure&quot;.&nbsp; Victory was measured by XP, gp, and character level, as well as items that increase character ability to achieve the three primary goals.It would be fair to say that any given D&amp;D session, or any given D&amp;D scenario (if you like, even any given D&amp;D encounter) is a game, but the overarching and ongoing campaign is a framework for that game, rather than being a game in and of itself.RC</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 4996327, member: 18280"] d'oh! EDIT: Fixed. Thanks. Pretend for a moment that you accept my splitting out of game and framework. Do you still object? After all, if you say "Get the high score" is not part of the Pac Man game, I could equally say "getting checkmate" is not part of chess. The game does not reward you in any way for getting checkmate (other than perhaps your winning I suppose, but, that's not a requirement). If you agree that [indent]The "framework" of pacman is that you will endlessly circle around the board, chomping dots until you lose. That's it. That is 100% known at the beginning of the game.[/indent] and that your goal is to last as long as you can, doing as well as you can (what score measures), then the outcome of the goal is not known at the beginning of the game. Only the framework is. Again, though, if you accept [I]a priori[/I] that "the resolution of the game" means how the goals of the game are resolved, and the goal of pac man is "last as long as you can, doing as well as you can", do you still deny that the the resolution must be affected by the players? IOW, if in Pac Man the goal is to last as long as you can, it is not a game if the resolution of that goal is based on a random timer that you cannot affect. BTW, in your SA game example, if the goal is "Keep the game going as long as you can", then offering mechanics that end the game become tantamount to agreeing that one player can walk away from a chess game [I]in media res[/I]. Which is always true, for any game. Victory conditions in D&D (for example) relate to scenarios. Any given session of D&D might have a number of victory conditions, often selected by the players (goals) and sometimes imposed by the DM. In the original game, the victory conditions were "survive", "explore", and "get treasure". Victory was measured by XP, gp, and character level, as well as items that increase character ability to achieve the three primary goals. It would be fair to say that any given D&D session, or any given D&D scenario (if you like, even any given D&D encounter) is a game, but the overarching and ongoing campaign is a framework for that game, rather than being a game in and of itself. RC [/QUOTE]

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