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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5007806" data-attributes="member: 22779">The difference lies in where the goals exist.&nbsp; For me, the goals of the players may not be directly linked to the game itself.&nbsp; The players may simply be using the game as a vehicle for exploring goals which have little direct bearing on what is occurring in the game.From what I see RC claiming is the following:1.&nbsp; For a goal to be a real goal, the achievement (or failure to achieve) that goal must be unknown.2.&nbsp; All games must have goals in order to be games.See, I agree with both these statements.&nbsp; Where I think RC has gone off track is that he has linked them.&nbsp; That the game goals can be the only goals that the players can have in order to be playing a game.&nbsp; I disagree (obviously).&nbsp; The players can have goals that have little to do with the goals presented in the game.Thus, a game could be a &quot;sketchily scripted performance&quot; and still be a game because the player's goals aren't directly tied to the game itself.&nbsp; &quot;Explore a philosophical point&quot; can be a player goal that is not explicit or even implicit in a particular game.&nbsp; &quot;How long can we keep this going&quot; can be a player goal, and not a game goal.&nbsp; Even &quot;Can I beat my high score&quot; isn't a goal within many games, yet remains a player goal, despite the fact that the end result of the game is 100% known.And you were doing so well not stooping to this sort of sniping RC.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5007806, member: 22779"] The difference lies in where the goals exist. For me, the goals of the players may not be directly linked to the game itself. The players may simply be using the game as a vehicle for exploring goals which have little direct bearing on what is occurring in the game. From what I see RC claiming is the following: 1. For a goal to be a real goal, the achievement (or failure to achieve) that goal must be unknown. 2. All games must have goals in order to be games. See, I agree with both these statements. Where I think RC has gone off track is that he has linked them. That the game goals can be the only goals that the players can have in order to be playing a game. I disagree (obviously). The players can have goals that have little to do with the goals presented in the game. Thus, a game could be a "sketchily scripted performance" and still be a game because the player's goals aren't directly tied to the game itself. "Explore a philosophical point" can be a player goal that is not explicit or even implicit in a particular game. "How long can we keep this going" can be a player goal, and not a game goal. Even "Can I beat my high score" isn't a goal within many games, yet remains a player goal, despite the fact that the end result of the game is 100% known. And you were doing so well not stooping to this sort of sniping RC. [/QUOTE]

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