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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5008611" data-attributes="member: 22779">See, this is where we disagree.&nbsp; You are claiming that the only goals that you as a player can have during a game are the goals outlined by the game itself in order to be playing any game.&nbsp; I agree that &quot;How much beer can I drink while playing chess&quot; isn't really a game of chess particularly.&nbsp; It is, however, IMO, still a game.That's why I disagree with you RC.&nbsp; You are claiming that player goals are irrelavent to whether or not a group of people is actually playing a game.&nbsp; I might agree that it matters whether or not they are playing a specific game, where I disagree is that they are no longer playing any game at all.To me, particularly as it pertains to an RPG, where player goals are absolutely key to the game, positing that only game goals can be used to determine whether or not you are playing a game at all is simply not true.&nbsp; An RPG, because of its open nature, and because of its story telling roots, can certainly be played as a framework for achieving player goals (not character goals, player goals mind you) that have little or nothing to do with the game being played.A simple example might be the casual player.&nbsp; He's just there to have fun with his friends.&nbsp; He doesn't really care about the game, he's not into deep immersion and whatnot.&nbsp; He just wants to have some fun with his buddies for four hours.&nbsp; His interaction with the goals of the game is tenuous at best.&nbsp; The events in the game are not his focus at all.&nbsp; For him, the achievement of his goal is, &quot;did I have a good time with my friends?&quot;.Is he playing a game or not?&nbsp; Because, if he's not, I've gotta say that there are many, many D&amp;D gamers who are not playing a game.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5008611, member: 22779"] See, this is where we disagree. You are claiming that the only goals that you as a player can have during a game are the goals outlined by the game itself in order to be playing [u]any[/u] game. I agree that "How much beer can I drink while playing chess" isn't really a game of chess particularly. It is, however, IMO, still a game. That's why I disagree with you RC. You are claiming that player goals are irrelavent to whether or not a group of people is actually playing a game. I might agree that it matters whether or not they are playing a [i]specific[/i] game, where I disagree is that they are no longer playing any game at all. To me, particularly as it pertains to an RPG, where player goals are absolutely key to the game, positing that only game goals can be used to determine whether or not you are playing a game at all is simply not true. An RPG, because of its open nature, and because of its story telling roots, can certainly be played as a framework for achieving player goals (not character goals, player goals mind you) that have little or nothing to do with the game being played. A simple example might be the casual player. He's just there to have fun with his friends. He doesn't really care about the game, he's not into deep immersion and whatnot. He just wants to have some fun with his buddies for four hours. His interaction with the goals of the game is tenuous at best. The events in the game are not his focus at all. For him, the achievement of his goal is, "did I have a good time with my friends?". Is he playing a game or not? Because, if he's not, I've gotta say that there are many, many D&D gamers who are not playing a game. [/QUOTE]

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