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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5010891" data-attributes="member: 22779">Oh, no.&nbsp; I totally understand what you're saying.&nbsp; I just don't agree with it.I think that &quot;how much beer can I drink while playing Chess&quot; is most certainly a game.&nbsp; You think that player goals apart from those dictated by the game itself, are mostly irrelevant.&nbsp; I disagree.&nbsp; I think that player goals are certainly relevant and, in some cases, can drastically alter the game you are playing and form new games.While I certainly would not want to play &quot;how much beer can I drink while playing chess&quot;, I do see it as a game with a player defined goal.Oh please.&nbsp; Let's not bring up old saws shall we?&nbsp; For one, why should every medusa out there being so mentally impaired that she cannot clean up after herself be a good use of foreshadowing?&nbsp; Oh, right, because it spackles over the abysmal save or die mechanics held over from earlier D&amp;D.&nbsp; <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png"&nbsp; class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm&nbsp; &nbsp; :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" />&nbsp; Never mind actually going back, reworking the mechanics so that they wouldn't force the DM to use the monster EXACTLY THE SAME WAY EVERY FRIGGIN' TIME.&nbsp; Yeah, that's good GM advice.&nbsp; &quot;Hey, whenever you want to use this monster, make sure you make a really obvious trail of breadcrumbs for the players.&quot;---------------------Going back to the sandbox for a moment.&nbsp; I have to ask, how do you invest any depth into the sandbox?&nbsp; After all, the sandbox is made without any input from the players - the characters they choose don't matter, heck even the players at the table don't matter.&nbsp; The sandbox never changes.So, if the campaign doesn't change in the slightest depending on who plays in it and what they happen to play, how do you gain any sort of depth?&nbsp; Or, to put it another way, why should I care about the spooky castle on the hill beyond grinding for xp?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5010891, member: 22779"] Oh, no. I totally understand what you're saying. I just don't agree with it. I think that "how much beer can I drink while playing Chess" is most certainly a game. You think that player goals apart from those dictated by the game itself, are mostly irrelevant. I disagree. I think that player goals are certainly relevant and, in some cases, can drastically alter the game you are playing and form new games. While I certainly would not want to play "how much beer can I drink while playing chess", I do see it as a game with a player defined goal. Oh please. Let's not bring up old saws shall we? For one, why should every medusa out there being so mentally impaired that she cannot clean up after herself be a good use of foreshadowing? Oh, right, because it spackles over the abysmal save or die mechanics held over from earlier D&D. :erm: Never mind actually going back, reworking the mechanics so that they wouldn't force the DM to use the monster EXACTLY THE SAME WAY EVERY FRIGGIN' TIME. Yeah, that's good GM advice. "Hey, whenever you want to use this monster, make sure you make a really obvious trail of breadcrumbs for the players." --------------------- Going back to the sandbox for a moment. I have to ask, how do you invest any depth into the sandbox? After all, the sandbox is made without any input from the players - the characters they choose don't matter, heck even the players at the table don't matter. The sandbox never changes. So, if the campaign doesn't change in the slightest depending on who plays in it and what they happen to play, how do you gain any sort of depth? Or, to put it another way, why should I care about the spooky castle on the hill beyond grinding for xp? [/QUOTE]

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