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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5010916" data-attributes="member: 18280">If you look at what you said, and look at what I said, I hope that it is obvious to you that they are not the same thing.Your response didn't address this at all.It &quot;how much beer can I drink while playing chess&quot; was a game, then &quot;the player(s) must have a goal related to the outcome of the game itself, and that the outcome of those goal(s) must be unknown&quot;.&nbsp; How does this make &quot;how much beer can I drink while playing chess&quot; not a game?&nbsp; There is a goal related to the outcome of the game (amount of beer consumed) that is unknown (dependent upon the length of the game and the speed with which you can drink).Note that this is different than &quot;drinking beer while playing chess&quot;, in which there is no goal element in drinking beer with an unknown outcome, but chess is still a game.Note that this is different than &quot;intentionally spilling my beer on the chess board while playing chess&quot; in which their is a goal element, but the outcome is presumably known.&nbsp; As I said before, the player(s) may have any additional goals they wish. For these additional goals, it doesn't matter whether or not the outcome is unknown.And note, the medusa's lair is given as an example of foreshadowing, demonstrating that the &quot;story element&quot; toolbox is a &quot;game element&quot; toolbox in the sandbox as well as outside of it.&nbsp; Within the context of the post, your response makes no sense whatsoever.If you demonstrate that you have read and understood what you are responding to, I will be happy to converse with you.&nbsp; I do not, however, feel like performing the InterWeb Shuffle with you.&nbsp; There is no point to a conversation where forward progress isn't possible.(The InterWeb Shuffle:

Person A:&nbsp; If both X and Y are true, Z must be true.

Person B:&nbsp; But X is not true.

Person A:&nbsp; Answers objections to X.

Person B:&nbsp; But Y is not true.

Person A:&nbsp; Answers objections to Y.

Person B:&nbsp; But there is no logical connection between X, Y, and Z.

Person A:&nbsp; Demonstrates logical connection.

Person B:&nbsp; But X is not true.

Rinse &amp; repeat)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 5010916, member: 18280"] If you look at what you said, and look at what I said, I hope that it is obvious to you that they are not the same thing. Your response didn't address this at all. It "how much beer can I drink while playing chess" was a game, then "the player(s) must have a goal related to the outcome of the game itself, and that the outcome of those goal(s) must be unknown". How does this make "how much beer can I drink while playing chess" not a game? There is a goal related to the outcome of the game (amount of beer consumed) that is unknown (dependent upon the length of the game and the speed with which you can drink). Note that this is different than "drinking beer while playing chess", in which there is no goal element in drinking beer with an unknown outcome, but chess is still a game. Note that this is different than "intentionally spilling my beer on the chess board while playing chess" in which their is a goal element, but the outcome is presumably known. As I said before, the player(s) may have any additional goals they wish. For these additional goals, it doesn't matter whether or not the outcome is unknown. And note, the medusa's lair is given as an example of foreshadowing, demonstrating that the "story element" toolbox is a "game element" toolbox in the sandbox as well as outside of it. Within the context of the post, your response makes no sense whatsoever. If you demonstrate that you have read and understood what you are responding to, I will be happy to converse with you. I do not, however, feel like performing the InterWeb Shuffle with you. There is no point to a conversation where forward progress isn't possible. [indent](The InterWeb Shuffle: Person A: If both X and Y are true, Z must be true. Person B: But X is not true. Person A: Answers objections to X. Person B: But Y is not true. Person A: Answers objections to Y. Person B: But there is no logical connection between X, Y, and Z. Person A: Demonstrates logical connection. Person B: But X is not true. Rinse & repeat)[/indent] [/QUOTE]

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