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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5011120" data-attributes="member: 18280">I find nothing bizarre about CR's posts, and any belligerance therein seems to be reciprical.&nbsp; Is it really suprising that he tried to come up with a &quot;worst case&quot; no-plot-elements example to counter a worst-case &quot;plot-elements-devour-player-choice&quot; example?By all means, I understand that the position of having an RPG be anything other than an AP has come under a lot of fire -- from the day Gygax was booted from the TSR building onward, AFAICT.&nbsp; But this is, IMHO, a pendulum swinging back and forth.&nbsp; And, like any pendulum, it describes an arc between two sides of the same ground.Stories arise from game play spontaneously, but they arise from game play because the GM and players have included elements that are fun to interact with.&nbsp; The Company of the White Hand can have a rivalry with the Group of Seven in the loosest sandbox, and what happens is a story, even if it is not foreordained.&nbsp; I don't believe that CR is suggesting that what happens be foreordained, but rather that the GM consider tossing the Group of Seven into the mix.&nbsp; I.e., many of his &quot;story elements&quot; are what others would refer to as &quot;game elements&quot;.Now, I certainly agree that CR has mused about whether or not actual player freedom is important if the illusion of player freedom isn't tested.&nbsp; But, in the very post he posited the question, he also answered it in the affirmative.&nbsp; Player freedom is important. You are both agreeing on this point, AFAICT.RC</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 5011120, member: 18280"] I find nothing bizarre about CR's posts, and any belligerance therein seems to be reciprical. Is it really suprising that he tried to come up with a "worst case" no-plot-elements example to counter a worst-case "plot-elements-devour-player-choice" example? By all means, I understand that the position of having an RPG be anything other than an AP has come under a lot of fire -- from the day Gygax was booted from the TSR building onward, AFAICT. But this is, IMHO, a pendulum swinging back and forth. And, like any pendulum, it describes an arc between two sides of the same ground. Stories arise from game play spontaneously, but they arise from game play [i][b]because the GM and players have included elements that are fun to interact with[/b][/i][b][/b]. The Company of the White Hand can have a rivalry with the Group of Seven in the loosest sandbox, and what happens is a story, even if it is not foreordained. I don't believe that CR is suggesting that what happens be foreordained, but rather that the GM consider tossing the Group of Seven into the mix. I.e., many of his "story elements" are what others would refer to as "game elements". Now, I certainly agree that CR has mused about whether or not actual player freedom is important if the illusion of player freedom isn't tested. But, in the very post he posited the question, he also answered it in the affirmative. Player freedom is important. You are both agreeing on this point, AFAICT. RC [/QUOTE]

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