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<blockquote data-quote="Ariosto" data-source="post: 5011195" data-attributes="member: 80487">That was my response to CR's &quot;fiction&quot; spiel directed at The Shaman. What invidious comparison is there?Then there was Vivyan Basterd's snark based on semantic bait and switch.In acknowledgment of the various potential meanings of the word, I posted:Now, if someone wants to backpedal all the way to, &quot;Well, playing out that scenario is all the 'story telling' I really mean,&quot; then so be it. If you're not busy beating me with a thesaurus, then I have no need to disarm you, eh?Go back and read the assertion to which I was responding. Recall that Squad Leader hit the shelves the same year as the blue-cover (Holmes) D&amp;D rule-book. Neither one exhibits any concern with a supposed norm of expecting a game to be a &quot;fiction&quot; in the story-sense in which CR uses it. Like the original D&amp;D set (but more clearly), the Holmes text simply explains how to play the game. Unlike far too many later works, it does not burden the reader with some weird definition of &quot;role-playing&quot;, any more than Squad Leader burdens the reader with such vacuities as to &quot;war gaming&quot;. SL does, however, start with:Now, the &quot;game system&quot; was pretty much par for the course in the miniatures hobby from which D&amp;D emerged. The key point made in the original set was that its scope need not be limited to the medieval.Plot, fiction, story, drama, narrative -- whatever such term you want to use -- simply did not figure. At best, it was superfluous; at worst, it would be needlessly confusing. You don't get a load of such art-school chat in Axis &amp; Allies, do you? Just play the game, and &quot;drama&quot; takes care of itself!&quot;How many times have you played cops and robbers with friends? ... Well, when you're playing cops and robbers, you are role playing.&quot; If you feel it necessary to offer a definition, then that one from TSR's 1985 Conan game seems about as useful as it gets.*The rules-book was all of 36 pages, a magnum opus back then! There was also a two-sided &quot;quick reference data card&quot; for each player, and there were 12 one-page scenarios. By comparison, the &quot;basic&quot; D&amp;D book was 48 pages and Dungeon Module B1 alone was 34 pages (32 pp. plus maps).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ariosto, post: 5011195, member: 80487"] That was my response to CR's "fiction" spiel directed at The Shaman. What invidious comparison is there? Then there was Vivyan Basterd's snark based on semantic bait and switch. In acknowledgment of the various potential meanings of the word, I posted:Now, if someone wants to backpedal all the way to, "Well, playing out that scenario is all the 'story telling' I really mean," then so be it. If you're not busy beating me with a thesaurus, then I have no need to disarm you, eh? Go back and read the assertion to which I was responding. Recall that Squad Leader hit the shelves the same year as the blue-cover (Holmes) D&D rule-book. [B]Neither one[/B] exhibits any concern with a supposed norm of expecting a game to be a "fiction" in the story-sense in which CR uses it. Like the original D&D set (but more clearly), the Holmes text simply explains how to play the game. Unlike far too many later works, it does not burden the reader with some weird definition of "role-playing", any more than Squad Leader burdens the reader with such vacuities as to "war gaming". SL does, however, start with: Now, the "game system" was pretty much par for the course in the miniatures hobby from which D&D emerged. The key point made in the original set was that its scope need not be limited to the medieval. Plot, fiction, story, drama, narrative -- whatever such term you want to use -- simply did not figure. At best, it was superfluous; at worst, it would be needlessly confusing. You don't get a load of such art-school chat in [I]Axis & Allies[/I], do you? Just play the game, and "drama" takes care of itself! "How many times have you played cops and robbers with friends? ... Well, when you're playing cops and robbers, you are role playing." If you feel it necessary to offer a definition, then that one from TSR's 1985 [I]Conan[/I] game seems about as useful as it gets. *[I]The rules-book was all of 36 pages, a magnum opus back then! There was also a two-sided "quick reference data card" for each player, and there were 12 one-page scenarios. By comparison, the "basic" D&D book was 48 pages and Dungeon Module B1 alone was 34 pages (32 pp. plus maps).[/I] [/QUOTE]

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