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<blockquote data-quote="Janx" data-source="post: 5011935" data-attributes="member: 8835">I think that &quot;How much beer can Hussar drink&quot; would be a pretty stupid and made-up game if he didn't tell the other player.To make a game out of it, you'd need rules on how many drinks/sips he can take between turns.&nbsp; You'd need turn limits, otherwise, his first turn could come up,a nd he could drink until passed out under the guise of &quot;I'm thinking about my next move&quot;Which makes it a game only in the loosest usage of the word.Children make up games to be a nuisance to others.&nbsp; they're not games in the sense of having rules and has goal and avictory condition that the opposition is even aware of.&nbsp; But they'll call it a game.Hussar's game sounds like one of those.But seriously, the word has been used to describe a number of things that some may not call a game.&nbsp; So be it.The reason I don't place stock in &quot;sandbox&quot; play is because it is an illusion.&nbsp; On the outside, it may appear that the GM is impartial and has a set of rules he is executing, therefore maintaining a true simulation.&nbsp; But the fact is, the GM decides a zillion things that influence the world and the game.He decides the name of the pub the party starts out in.&nbsp; He may even decided that the party IS starting out in a pub.&nbsp; He determines the location and facing of the pub, relative to all other objects in the game.&nbsp; He determines what NPCs are in the pub, and determimes the plot hook each of them may bear.&nbsp; Technically, the DM might have a tool to generate all that, but odds are good he doesn't.&nbsp; Furthermore, the plot hooks are most likely made-up by the DM, setting the largest human bias in the system.From there, the DM determines the nature of all the opposition the PC will encounter while pursuing a chosen plot hook.&nbsp; The DM will determine the outcome and side effects while doing that.&nbsp; Another particularly biased action.While it may seem like the DM has tables for everything, the DM is constantly making decisions that bias the game.&nbsp; Thus, a sandbox game doesn't really exist.And there's nothing wrong with that.&nbsp; Nor is there anything wrong with striving for a true sandbox.&nbsp; It's simply a matter that having a human DM involved inherently biases the experience, much like how the act of observing an experiment affects the experiment.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Janx, post: 5011935, member: 8835"] I think that "How much beer can Hussar drink" would be a pretty stupid and made-up game if he didn't tell the other player. To make a game out of it, you'd need rules on how many drinks/sips he can take between turns. You'd need turn limits, otherwise, his first turn could come up,a nd he could drink until passed out under the guise of "I'm thinking about my next move" Which makes it a game only in the loosest usage of the word. Children make up games to be a nuisance to others. they're not games in the sense of having rules and has goal and avictory condition that the opposition is even aware of. But they'll call it a game. Hussar's game sounds like one of those. But seriously, the word has been used to describe a number of things that some may not call a game. So be it. The reason I don't place stock in "sandbox" play is because it is an illusion. On the outside, it may appear that the GM is impartial and has a set of rules he is executing, therefore maintaining a true simulation. But the fact is, the GM decides a zillion things that influence the world and the game. He decides the name of the pub the party starts out in. He may even decided that the party IS starting out in a pub. He determines the location and facing of the pub, relative to all other objects in the game. He determines what NPCs are in the pub, and determimes the plot hook each of them may bear. Technically, the DM might have a tool to generate all that, but odds are good he doesn't. Furthermore, the plot hooks are most likely made-up by the DM, setting the largest human bias in the system. From there, the DM determines the nature of all the opposition the PC will encounter while pursuing a chosen plot hook. The DM will determine the outcome and side effects while doing that. Another particularly biased action. While it may seem like the DM has tables for everything, the DM is constantly making decisions that bias the game. Thus, a sandbox game doesn't really exist. And there's nothing wrong with that. Nor is there anything wrong with striving for a true sandbox. It's simply a matter that having a human DM involved inherently biases the experience, much like how the act of observing an experiment affects the experiment. [/QUOTE]

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