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<blockquote data-quote="Ariosto" data-source="post: 5016121" data-attributes="member: 80487">I'm not about to try to find and read through that old thread again, but I don't think the exploration of the drain took more than half an hour in real time, however much imaginary time it supposedly occupied.The real-time-consumer, if I recall correctly, was that the players split the party and the other bunch got into a fight. This was WotC-D&amp;D, I'm pretty sure, and 20 minutes real is considered fast for what probably lasts less than a minute imaginary. That &quot;event horizon&quot; holds even if you've got a second DM, unless the drain boys are Time Lords.You can't absolutely prevent players from doing dumb things unless you take away their ability to decide what their characters try to do.Whether or not it was &quot;the problem&quot; here, it is indeed easy for the DM to give players wrong impressions about the environment they are exploring. In this case, I'm pretty sure the players who went up the drain were just pulling expectations from their asses along with rope.The rest of the party thought it a fool's errand, and voted with their feet. Was that perhaps more sensible considering the information at hand? If so, then why blame the DM for the other players' choice? Why blame the DM for the choice to split the party further? I can see -- but not necessarily agree with -- blaming the DM for even giving the rest of the party an opportunity to get into a fight, and the drain boys none.In the &quot;game&quot; style, that's how it goes. In Contract Bridge, The Russian Campaign or Snits' Revenge, I reap what I sow. I expect no less in Dungeons &amp; Dragons. Now, sometimes people get stuck in a mental rut about &quot;rules&quot;, and maybe some games make that easier. I'm thinking of a DM whose party was crossing the equivalent of Russia while being harried by native irregular horsemen. Assuming they survived, it was going to be a really long trip -- and a repetitious one. That DM needed a reminder that it need not take a lot of real time to get through those imaginary weeks, which would be boring.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ariosto, post: 5016121, member: 80487"] I'm not about to try to find and read through that old thread again, but I don't think the exploration of the drain took more than half an hour in real time, however much imaginary time it supposedly occupied. The real-time-consumer, if I recall correctly, was that [b]the players split the party[/b] and the other bunch got into a fight. This was WotC-D&D, I'm pretty sure, and 20 minutes real is considered fast for what probably lasts less than a minute imaginary. That "event horizon" holds even if you've got a second DM, unless the drain boys are Time Lords. You can't absolutely prevent players from doing dumb things unless you take away their ability to decide what their characters try to do. Whether or not it was "the problem" here, it is indeed easy for the DM to give players wrong impressions about the environment they are exploring. In this case, I'm pretty sure the players who went up the drain were just pulling expectations from their asses along with rope. The rest of the party thought it a fool's errand, and voted with their feet. Was that perhaps more sensible considering the information at hand? If so, then why blame the DM for the other players' choice? Why blame the DM for the choice to split the party further? I can see -- but not necessarily agree with -- blaming the DM for even giving the rest of the party an opportunity to get into a fight, and the drain boys none. In the "game" style, that's how it goes. In Contract Bridge, The Russian Campaign or Snits' Revenge, I reap what I sow. I expect no less in Dungeons & Dragons. Now, sometimes people get stuck in a mental rut about "rules", and maybe some games make that easier. I'm thinking of a DM whose party was crossing the equivalent of Russia while being harried by native irregular horsemen. Assuming they survived, it was going to be a really long trip -- and a repetitious one. That DM needed a reminder that it need not take a lot of [i]real[/i] time to get through those imaginary weeks, which would be boring. [/QUOTE]

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