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<blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 3529995" data-attributes="member: 3192">I know this may appear redundant, but you guys are on page 23.&nbsp; My understanding still is: Hussar and Rounser are playing stories while everyone else is playing games.&nbsp; Stories have plots.&nbsp; Games don't.&nbsp; Plots are predetermined by definition.&nbsp; Games aren't (or Vegas owes me big).Now I know, since the advent of the DL adventures plots have become status quo.&nbsp; That even the &quot;Choose Your Own Adventure&quot; style plotting has become considered de rigeur for running a railroad-free game.&nbsp; For myself, I can only shake my head and disagree.&nbsp; This style is still laying down tracks; it just presumes to know when and where they divide.&nbsp; The misunderstanding about &quot;setting&quot; and &quot;world-building&quot;, again, as I understand it, is directly related to riding these plots.&nbsp; Plots weave around the country like freeways.&nbsp; &quot;Setting&quot; is the freeway barrier on either side.&nbsp; &quot;World-building&quot; is everything beyond those barriers.&nbsp; So, if you're telling a story, regardless of the number of plot threads, anything that doesn't count as &quot;setting&quot; is pointless.&nbsp; The freeway, the plot, is the only thing that matters.&nbsp; The rest is pretty much just scenery (which can be painted with as much detail as the DM cares to give it.&nbsp; It will never influence anything anyways).If you're not telling a story, if you are playing a game, a simulation game that is very, very much like real life, then world-building is a necessity (whether done spontaneously or not).&nbsp; How can this possibly work?&nbsp; Won't chaos break out without plots?&nbsp; Isn't everything pointless then?&nbsp; Well, think back to all the pre-1986 adventures.&nbsp; Some were designed for tournaments, true, but never a one had a plot.&nbsp; What they did have were limited scope and proscribed goals.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Because players had only 4 hours to achieve some kind of success within them.&nbsp; Not to mention everyone was being graded on their achievements as well, so, in competition, each group worked to best as much of the module as possible within the alloted time.&nbsp; In home &quot;campaigns&quot; the action doesn't need to stop.&nbsp; Success and achievement don't run on a timeline; they occur as appropriate based on how everything plays out.&nbsp; Goals are not needed either.&nbsp; The group, a bunch of heroes remember, choose their own goals and live or die by them.&nbsp; That's freedom of choice, of desire.&nbsp; They are responsible for what happens to them, not the DM.&nbsp; It also invests them in the game.&nbsp; The other consideration is &quot;Scope&quot;.&nbsp; That's a big one for me as it factors in on how I run high-level adventures too.&nbsp; In a campaign scope has no boundaries.&nbsp; Certain adventure locales of course do.&nbsp; These are modules and are called that as they are modular.&nbsp; They are designed to fit into your world, not &quot;setting&quot;.&nbsp; While they are uniform, there are no real boundaries around them.&nbsp; No freeway barriers.&nbsp; Nothing but world and perhaps more modules.&nbsp; The idea is, scope can grow and grow and grow just as your players increase in level.&nbsp; A high level adventure will have little in low level detail, but will have great breadth of scope.&nbsp; They are still difficult to publish as it's hard to generalize what low-level details the players may have been rewarded with to call on as resources in the larger module.It's a little like smaller circles overlapping or concentric of bigger ones.&nbsp; And then all are inside a big petri dish.&nbsp; When the game starts it's like adding heat.&nbsp; Everything starts to go wild where the PCs are and the heat turns up with every action.Again, why aren't plots needed?&nbsp; Because in the real world I haven't needed others to decide my goals, my actions, or my choices for me since I was a child. Who ever needed plots then when they played &quot;let's pretend&quot; games?&nbsp; Most adults on this planet seem to get along just fine without others determining a plot for their lives.&nbsp;&nbsp; In fact, to suggest otherwise is against freedom.&nbsp; It's against everything we stand for.&nbsp; I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen![Leads the Deltas out of the hearing, all humming the Star-Spangled Banner]</blockquote>

[QUOTE="howandwhy99, post: 3529995, member: 3192"] I know this may appear redundant, but you guys are on page 23. My understanding still is: Hussar and Rounser are playing stories while everyone else is playing games. Stories have plots. Games don't. Plots are predetermined by definition. Games aren't (or Vegas owes me big). Now I know, since the advent of the DL adventures plots have become status quo. That even the "Choose Your Own Adventure" style plotting has become considered de rigeur for running a railroad-free game. For myself, I can only shake my head and disagree. This style is still laying down tracks; it just presumes to know when and where they divide. The misunderstanding about "setting" and "world-building", again, as I understand it, is directly related to riding these plots. Plots weave around the country like freeways. "Setting" is the freeway barrier on either side. "World-building" is everything beyond those barriers. So, if you're telling a story, regardless of the number of plot threads, anything that doesn't count as "setting" is pointless. The freeway, the plot, is the only thing that matters. The rest is pretty much just scenery (which can be painted with as much detail as the DM cares to give it. It will never influence anything anyways). If you're not telling a story, if you are playing a game, a simulation game that is very, very much like real life, then world-building is a necessity (whether done spontaneously or not). How can this possibly work? Won't chaos break out without plots? Isn't everything pointless then? Well, think back to all the pre-1986 adventures. Some were designed for tournaments, true, but never a one had a plot. What they did have were limited scope and proscribed goals. Why? Because players had only 4 hours to achieve some kind of success within them. Not to mention everyone was being graded on their achievements as well, so, in competition, each group worked to best as much of the module as possible within the alloted time. In home "campaigns" the action doesn't need to stop. Success and achievement don't run on a timeline; they occur as appropriate based on how everything plays out. Goals are not needed either. The group, a bunch of heroes remember, choose their own goals and live or die by them. That's freedom of choice, of desire. They are responsible for what happens to them, not the DM. It also invests them in the game. The other consideration is "Scope". That's a big one for me as it factors in on how I run high-level adventures too. In a campaign scope has no boundaries. Certain adventure locales of course do. These are modules and are called that as they are modular. They are designed to fit into your world, not "setting". While they are uniform, there are no real boundaries around them. No freeway barriers. Nothing but world and perhaps more modules. The idea is, scope can grow and grow and grow just as your players increase in level. A high level adventure will have little in low level detail, but will have great breadth of scope. They are still difficult to publish as it's hard to generalize what low-level details the players may have been rewarded with to call on as resources in the larger module. It's a little like smaller circles overlapping or concentric of bigger ones. And then all are inside a big petri dish. When the game starts it's like adding heat. Everything starts to go wild where the PCs are and the heat turns up with every action. Again, why aren't plots needed? Because in the real world I haven't needed others to decide my goals, my actions, or my choices for me since I was a child. Who ever needed plots then when they played "let's pretend" games? Most adults on this planet seem to get along just fine without others determining a plot for their lives. In fact, to suggest otherwise is against freedom. It's against everything we stand for. I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen! [Leads the Deltas out of the hearing, all humming the Star-Spangled Banner] [/QUOTE]

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