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<blockquote data-quote="Mannahnin" data-source="post: 9676307" data-attributes="member: 7026594">Can you quote him?&nbsp; We're talking about the same Gary who did voiceover work for D&amp;D Online, right?Beyond that...A) Thieves are simply bad and could use help in TSR editions regardless of any comparison to other versions.&nbsp; If you have a 10% to 50% chance of performing a key character function, and the DMG advises the DM to impose a likely-to-be-deadly consequence for failure, the math simply works out that the character is unlikely to survive long unless they simply avoid using their skills.B) You've apparently forgotten that third party and OSR variant versions of D&amp;D exist, contributing to your inaccurate guess.I don't think you can reasonably argue that how good a D&amp;D character is in combat is represented solely by their attack rolls.&nbsp; Attack rolls, armor class, hit points, special abilities, and to some extent saving throws all factor in.Thieves in TSR editions have equal or slightly inferior attack progressions to clerics, while having inferior armor class, saving throws, and in some editions hit dice. I explicitly noted that some folks enjoy them despite their mechanical weaknesses. <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="🤷‍♂️" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f937-2642.png" title="Man shrugging&nbsp; &nbsp; :man_shrugging:" data-shortname=":man_shrugging:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" />&nbsp;&nbsp; I started with BECMI in 1985, switched to 1E AD&amp;D shortly thereafter, but played a lot more 2E AD&amp;D than either.&nbsp; Started delving into the OSR around 2010, but only started playing OD&amp;D and other old editions again really regularly in the last five years. Definitely seeing them in play helps.&nbsp; I was a little confused as a kid by Gary's advice in the 1E DMG to be harsh on Thieves and adjudicate as if they were overpowered, because even at that age I could read the tables and see the small percentages.&nbsp; But I had faith that he knew what he was talking about.&nbsp; In retrospect, after playing the game for years, his advice on that particular topic looks worse and worse.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mannahnin, post: 9676307, member: 7026594"] Can you quote him? We're talking about the same Gary who did voiceover work for D&D Online, right? Beyond that... A) Thieves are simply bad and could use help in TSR editions regardless of any comparison to other versions. If you have a 10% to 50% chance of performing a key character function, and the DMG advises the DM to impose a likely-to-be-deadly consequence for failure, the math simply works out that the character is unlikely to survive long unless they simply avoid using their skills. B) You've apparently forgotten that third party and OSR variant versions of D&D exist, contributing to your inaccurate guess. I don't think you can reasonably argue that how good a D&D character is in combat is represented solely by their attack rolls. Attack rolls, armor class, hit points, special abilities, and to some extent saving throws all factor in. Thieves in TSR editions have equal or slightly inferior attack progressions to clerics, while having inferior armor class, saving throws, and in some editions hit dice. I explicitly noted that some folks enjoy them despite their mechanical weaknesses. 🤷‍♂️ I started with BECMI in 1985, switched to 1E AD&D shortly thereafter, but played a lot more 2E AD&D than either. Started delving into the OSR around 2010, but only started playing OD&D and other old editions again really regularly in the last five years. Definitely seeing them in play helps. I was a little confused as a kid by Gary's advice in the 1E DMG to be harsh on Thieves and adjudicate as if they were overpowered, because even at that age I could read the tables and see the small percentages. But I had faith that he knew what he was talking about. In retrospect, after playing the game for years, his advice on that particular topic looks worse and worse. [/QUOTE]

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