Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Willie the Duck" data-source="post: 9676330" data-attributes="member: 6799660">I don't recall seeing anyone stating something as objectively bad (those two words together in general are pretty iffy). In general, I find it helpful to assume any statements on this board not otherwise clarified to be positions or statements of opinion. Regardless, I'm sure plenty of people did enjoy playing thieves in TSR A/D&D (I certainly did at times). That doesn't specifically exclude them from being 'bad' (by whatever metric we want to use). Houserules exist, play patterns can override mechanical limitations, people can play multiple characters (or different characters at different levels), and people can put up with a lot of mechanical issues if the thematics are good (and there's a lot of appeal to a lovable rogue).  I'm not sure if I agree that the Magic User supports the argument well or not. I mean, clearly 'you do your one thing, and then get out of the way and try not to die' is a viable character-type strategy -- and one deployed in part of the game. I'm not sure that means it should happen for the thief, given that they are by also tasked with being out in front of failed-to-be-disarmed traps and behind enemy lines when HiS/MS fails. Beyond that, I think the MU is notable in that 1) the low levels where they run out of (applicable) spells very quickly and then are nothing but liability is a major frustration of playing them, and 2) towards the upper levels, those things they can do start to increase in power and prominence, whereas those things a thief can do drop off in relative utility.I'd hesitate to use strictly the numbers for this. Part of what influences the outcome is going to be the textual language. AD&D and BX or 2E have not-dissimilar percentages for thieving skills, but 1E is much more stringent on saying no to a thief even getting to roll that percentage in the first place. Also consider that a significant part of combat ability is going to be born out on the magic item table. For that, the BX/BECMI ability of thieves to use any weapon is going to come into play.ThAC0 (a portion of combat ability) is the same for thieves and clerics in BX, BECMI, and RC. In oD&D (and I assume B) they are unlinked and it wobbles around with one or the other doing better at a given level. In 1e a cleric is slightly ahead on the attack matrices. In 2e it settles down with the cleric ahead (advancing at 2/3 point of ThAC0 per level compared to the thieves' 1/2). All of this not accounting for the thief potentially being ahead in level based on their xp chart (but then again also not accounting for other combat influencing factors like armor, hp, weapons-usable, magic items, etc.).</blockquote>

Verification