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<blockquote data-quote="Mannahnin" data-source="post: 9680299" data-attributes="member: 7026594">I think this is a fair point.&nbsp; The difference both in scale principally considered and in gamist vs. simulationist priorites.&nbsp; OD&amp;D and AD&amp;D borrow a good bit from old-school large scale miniatures wargames.&nbsp; The scale (including 1 minute rounds), the rules for movement speeds and for archery range, for example, are directly taken from a mass battle game (Chainmail) and while that conversion has some serious issues*, it's still drawing from real world sources and from a more simulationist wargaming tradition.4E instead drew both from the ensuing 30+ years of RPG design and from a more gamist skirmish wargame tradition developed in the 90s and early 2000s, with clear influence from WH40k and I might say from Privateer Press' Warmachine (released 2003).&nbsp; The emphasis was more on what makes an exciting, easy to understand, and balanced game, with sweet narrative moments of climactic action, and less on grounding in historical realism and simulation. And as SableWyvern noted, the time scale of the WotC editions, with their 6 second rounds, is again zoomed-in much more at the individual tactical level instead of the large scale unit level. (Side note that B/X's 10 second rounds are another example of its design being arguably more advanced/intentional than AD&amp;D's).That being said, yeah, Sacrosanct is right that it was ironic for 1E players to complain about 3E or 4E playing slow, when 1E runs at a similar level of speed or even slower if you actually use most of the rules.*(For example, <a href="https://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2014/04/a-model-of-archery-for-d.html" target="_blank">archery ranges</a>, or the massive value deflation of +1 bonuses or -1 penalties to hit with certain weapons or against certain foes in AD&amp;D, which were originally +1 on a D6 in Chainmail)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mannahnin, post: 9680299, member: 7026594"] I think this is a fair point. The difference both in scale principally considered and in gamist vs. simulationist priorites. OD&D and AD&D borrow a good bit from old-school large scale miniatures wargames. The scale (including 1 minute rounds), the rules for movement speeds and for archery range, for example, are directly taken from a mass battle game (Chainmail) and while that conversion has some serious issues*, it's still drawing from real world sources and from a more simulationist wargaming tradition. 4E instead drew both from the ensuing 30+ years of RPG design and from a more gamist skirmish wargame tradition developed in the 90s and early 2000s, with clear influence from WH40k and I might say from Privateer Press' Warmachine (released 2003). The emphasis was more on what makes an exciting, easy to understand, and balanced game, with sweet narrative moments of climactic action, and less on grounding in historical realism and simulation. And as SableWyvern noted, the time scale of the WotC editions, with their 6 second rounds, is again zoomed-in much more at the individual tactical level instead of the large scale unit level. (Side note that B/X's 10 second rounds are another example of its design being arguably more advanced/intentional than AD&D's). That being said, yeah, Sacrosanct is right that it was ironic for 1E players to complain about 3E or 4E playing slow, when 1E runs at a similar level of speed or even slower if you actually use most of the rules. *(For example, [URL='https://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2014/04/a-model-of-archery-for-d.html']archery ranges[/URL], or the massive value deflation of +1 bonuses or -1 penalties to hit with certain weapons or against certain foes in AD&D, which were originally +1 [I][B]on a D6[/B][/I] in Chainmail) [/QUOTE]

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