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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sacrosanct" data-source="post: 6743773" data-attributes="member: 15700">class and subclass features are separate from feats.  That's why.  When you evaluate things like mechanical balance, you need to have an equal playing field, and every other class/subclass feature is independent of feats.Since adding your prof bonus applies to pretty much everything the pet is skilled in or has as a "class" feature, the inference is there that your prof bonus is also added to Save DCs, since that's an ability that's tied to that pet's "class" ability.Oh please.  You put that disingenuous comment in the garbage where it belongs.  The argument is that the beastmaster is underpowered, and that's measured by mechanical factors.  Measuring power has nothing to do with whatever level of emotional attachment a person has for their pet.  And it certainly isn't theorycrafting.  That doesn't even make any sense to bring that up.Who cares if you've never seen it.  It's right there as a class feature.  After 8 hours, you can get another pet.  You can't just handwave away that as a benefit just because you personally haven't seen it used.Yeah it is.  Once again, how a player personally feels about their pet means nothing in the context of measuring objective benefits.  Insisting on bringing that up just illustrates how your argument is weak.  Stick to objective factors please.  Pets will get attacked, especially if they are up there in melee attacking themselves.  And for every pet that is targeted with an attack, that's one attack NOT targeted at the PC or an ally.  So yeah, they very much are a HP soak in concept and application.The base ranger's attack does not have hunter's mark.  Once again, you're evaluating apples to oranges, and making assumptions that aren't necessarily true.  Compare the attack given up with the attack granted, with no other additional conditional factors that may or may not apply.  Several of the pet attacks grant an additional bonus that the ranger's base attack does not.  And it can be applied every turn.  This is objectively true.  End stop.That sounds more like "the BM is underpowered compared to a paladin with his or her mount" rather than a blanket "the BM is underpowered".  If that were a true statement.  Which it's not.  Or perhaps you can show me where the paladin with his or her mount can grant advantage to any ally as a bonus action?And as I said, when you actually look at the actual benefits given, it's not underpowered compared to all of the other classes.  It's only perceived to be underpowered.  And the two are not the same.  Especially since many of the "solutions" make the subclass OP compared to every other class, essentially giving the player two PCs to play, both individually as effective as almost every other class</blockquote>

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