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<blockquote data-quote="billd91" data-source="post: 7359031" data-attributes="member: 3400">I totally disagree that you needed to really try to break the game with spells like Harm nor that it was theorycrafting. It comes up too easily and too often without even really planning for it. In the case of Harm, it was largely the same spell in 3.0 as it was in AD&amp;D - it left the target with 1d4 hp. But it was broken in 3e far more than in AD&amp;D because it involved an unexpected or unintended consequence of adding a Touch AC and caster-affected save DCs. In AD&amp;D, the cleric needed to hit the target's full AC - which could be pretty difficult since they weren't fighters, were far less likely to have a strength-based attack bonus, and had no bonuses to hit from a magic weapon. Contrast that with nailing a dragon with Harm in 3.0 - child's play since the dragon's natural armor bonus was ignored and clerics usually could get a strength bonus. The addition of the saving throw wasn't enough compensation because of the addition of a caster's ability to boost the save DC (add in the daily routine of casting an extended Owl's Wisdom and things got even crazier). But then, that's often what you get when you hold one element stable while changing others that interact with it. As far as I'm concerned, the impact of Harm was chicken feed compared to the impact of allowing such easy item crafting. That was a far bigger game changer with far-reaching implications.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="billd91, post: 7359031, member: 3400"] I totally disagree that you needed to really try to break the game with spells like Harm nor that it was theorycrafting. It comes up too easily and too often without even really planning for it. In the case of Harm, it was largely the same spell in 3.0 as it was in AD&D - it left the target with 1d4 hp. But it was broken in 3e far more than in AD&D because it involved an unexpected or unintended consequence of adding a Touch AC and caster-affected save DCs. In AD&D, the cleric needed to hit the target's full AC - which could be pretty difficult since they weren't fighters, were far less likely to have a strength-based attack bonus, and had no bonuses to hit from a magic weapon. Contrast that with nailing a dragon with Harm in 3.0 - child's play since the dragon's natural armor bonus was ignored and clerics usually could get a strength bonus. The addition of the saving throw wasn't enough compensation because of the addition of a caster's ability to boost the save DC (add in the daily routine of casting an extended Owl's Wisdom and things got even crazier). But then, that's often what you get when you hold one element stable while changing others that interact with it. As far as I'm concerned, the impact of Harm was chicken feed compared to the impact of allowing such easy item crafting. [b]That[/b] was a far bigger game changer with far-reaching implications. [/QUOTE]

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