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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 6036175" data-attributes="member: 7006">I had thought about that, but came to the conclusion that skeletons don't really seem "spawnable" (via killing and then changing a living being).  For one... you'd need some way to completely strip the flesh off the dead body, which doesn't seem all that easy and necessary.  And two, skeletons have always been the backbone (pun intended) of the Necromancer's "raised" army.  So skeletons aren't spawned, they're animated.  Which is why I kept them out of the big/little brother pairings on my list.  Keep them separate as your basic animated undead.  On the same basis I would have kept zombies outside of the "spawning" pool too (as they are also traditionally created via necromantic animation rather than spawning)... but it does make a bit of sense that perhaps a wight has the same magical ability to "raise" a corpse like a necromancer could.That being said... to answer your question on what would be the "elder brother" of the skeleton... of the most universal undead creatures in the game it would probably be the Death Knight or Skeletal Warrior.  But in both cases, I don't believe either one would create skeletons from the people they just killed.Both James Wyatt and Jon Schindehette talked about the incorporeal undead recently in their respective columns.  Jon made the good point that 'ghosts' are just wandering spirits who are still tied here for some reason but are not necessarily hostile or aggressive (which is why I didn't include them in the list of "greater undead")  Whereas spectres are the more malevolent apparitions, and he describes them as perhaps people who were killed violently due to some treachery, and they remain here looking for vengeance against those who betrayed them (while trying to eradicate all other life while doing so).Jon postulated that wraiths were perhaps bound here because of some geas, curse or duty that was left unfulfilled.  Whereas James suggested that they might be perhaps wights of such pure concentrated evil that their malign spirit has even outlived its physical body which is why they are now incorporeal.Speaking personally... I prefer to move Jon's thoughts on the wraith over to the spectre-- especially the "task unfulfilled" part.  I see ghosts and spectres as two sides of the same coin... spirits who have not been able to move on to their final rest because of some duty or problem or oath they need to see completed first.  Ghosts are the good or neutral people, whereas spectres are the evil ones.  I do think they need to come up with a better separation between wraiths and spectres though.  Both always seem to tread upon similar ground.Having a look at my grid above and also reading through the posts by James and Jon on the Wizards website did get me to thinking a bit in terms of how and why these undead come into creation, and how you might separate them in terms of their reason for existence.  It does extend my "big brother" metaphor a bit further than these undead have really been described in the past, but perhaps it might help to get them in focus.First of all... you have three levels of undead "creation"-- the three ways they come into existence.  Lowest level are those undead that are either animated or are spawned from more powerful undead.  I would include in this level your skeletons, zombies, ghouls and shadows.  None of these appear spontaneously on their own... they all get "created" by someone else.  They are all mindless or animal-level in intelligence.Your second level includes those undead which can spontaneously come into existence.  Usually because the person in life was so evil or depraved and had such a desire for something that the corpse and spirit became undead on its own.  The person didn't plan on it happening... but in some ways his evilness in life punished him by having it happen.  This level I would put your ghasts, wights, and wraiths.Your upper level is reserved for those ultimate evil people who desired and strove to become undead... because they still had some earthly tie that made them want to spend the rest of their unlife here, rather than move on.  They went about the processes necessary to assure themselves eternal unlife-- they made themselves undead.  This would be your spectre, vampire, mummy, and lich.So you have these three tiers of how they became undead... and I do think you could even then split them up vertically by what their reasoning is for being undead.  This way you make sure they all have different reasons for their existence in the game.  Some of these ideas has been offered by James and Jon, and I'm just riffing on them.The first group James put together and I think makes a lot of sense:  the ghoul, ghast, and vampire.  All three of these have an insatiable hunger or thirst-- a need for something that is so strong that they cannot rest.  For ghouls it is as simple as the need to consume living flesh, whereas the vampire might have a longing for a person or an object.  They don't have it and they will not rest until they do.The second group are the three that are compelled by a duty... something they need or are compelled to do.  These would be your zombies, wights, and mummies.  Walking corpses who are often guardians-- found amongst tombs protecting the stuff within.  These creatures will not rest because they have to do this task.The third group is the incorporeal group... and I've always seen them as the ones whose spirits were ripped from their bodies due to such overwhelming evil-- either a horrible, violent, treacherous death, or a need for vengeance that is so strong that the spirit remains even when the body dies.  Your shadows, wraiths, and spectres.  They truly are the spirits of vengeance... wreaking havoc among the living in order to get back at those who wronged them.Finally, there's the fourth group... which even I am having a hard time really even considering as an actual group per se.  It's only because they are all skeletal that I do so... which is your skeleton, death knight, and lich.  Now I know they don't really belong together (except for the fact that they are all skeletal) because the skeleton and death knight have traditionally been animated warriors, whereas the lich is the ultimate evil wizard.  So while the skeleton and death knight could be paired up-- subservient warriors and champions for demon lords, archdevils, or evil gods... the liches are in a class by themselves.  But just because it makes the chart look nice, I'll include them.Thus the pretty grid of undeath looks like this:[code]              animated/  spontaneously    self              spawned       created      createdwar:          skeleton   death knight    lichduty:         zombie        wight        mummyhunger:       ghoul         ghast        vampirevengeance:    shadow       wraith        spectre[/code]Does this really mean anything?  Nope.  But it kept me busy for about an hour coming up with all of this, so it was time well spent for me.  Feel free to tell me how full of crap I am for it.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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