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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 4594427" data-attributes="member: 710">That's an interesting thought. Analogies only go so far, though, and I want to add some counterpoints to it.I think you underestimate a few aspects.World of Warcraft might have been designed for casual play, but there are still a lot of people that play it extensively and even grow addicted to it. I think it might be casual to pick up, but there is a lot to do with the game. For me, I saw there was too much to do, and I didn't just want to spend the time for it, so I gave up after playing the Demo for an hour or so. Easy to learn, hard to master might be the description. D&D 4 doesn't stay simple. Maybe character creation and advancement is simpler, but the devil in the detail, during actual play. Some that wants hardcore D&D might never leave D&D 4 for another edition. He just plays it more often, gets more books, reads message boards on the optimum tactics for his character, have the DM throw exceedingly more difficulty encounters at him. Or maybe instead he rolls the dice less, and instead does more "improvised theatre" then using rules. People that visit those "pop" Jazz Clubs are interested in Jazz, and pick up the stuff that's easy. But they don't decide suddenly "I want my music more demanding" and listen to classical music from Mozard or Beethoven, they hear more Jazz, and visit your hardcore club, that gives them a different, possibly greater, selection of it.But again, analogies only go so far. Is your Jazz Club the equivalent to D&D 3E? Or is it the equivalent to D&D 4E with the party fighting itself through dozens of encounters with at least two levels higher then party level? Or is the equivalent to someone trying more game systems? Or is the equivalent to someone becoming a DM instead of a player? Or is the the equivalent of a party playing in a sandbox instead of a railroad? Or is the equivalent of a guy collecting every book on his favorite game system(s)?---Speaking for myself, I play nearly ever week-end. Some of the guys in my group play RPGs (and not just D&D) for probably a decade longer then I do. We are pretty much "hard-core" gamers, I think. Well, I suppose you know what our edition of choice is... Suffice to say it doesn't match your expectation. Maybe we are unique in that regard. But I think few of the guys here on EN World can be described as "casual" gamers.</blockquote>

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