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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rechan" data-source="post: 4186571" data-attributes="member: 54846">I'm going to put it to you this way:Magic overshadowing everyone happens because you have two people playing two different classes completely who want to do the same thing. More importantly, the problem of magic overshadowing the other guy is because the wizard, in previous editions, could say "Today I'm going to overshadow the Rogue, tomorrow, the Fighter, the next day, the Psion, the following day, Somebody Else." Me, I think it's a real rude move to horn in on someone else's territory when they build their character around that. It's rude for the wizard to decide to do the rogue's job for him.But when the rogue's player has built his rogue to do something else, like running jumping tumbling swashbuckly finesse fighting, and not trap setting and espionage, the wizard doing that isn't overshadowing.I will tell you right now, I love MacGuyvers. People using little tricks to get real clever effects. Tactics and planning way ahead of time and the plan all comes together. To me, it doesn't matter if my guy uses move silently + hide and the Disguise skill, or magic to do recon and the site's floor plans, then sneak in and infiltrate the enemy's fortress, and set up a distraction. It doesn't matter to me if my guy is using completely mundane tools, technology, psionics, mundane+magical tools, or purely magical, what matters is that that's the niche that really excites me, and all that matters is that I get the desired effect from my planning.Yet what I'm hearing is that "I shouldn't be able to use magic because that would mean you're too powerful and overshadowing someone else". And if my guy is using magic to do the above, I'd gladly give up the ability to throw around fireballs, polymorph and stoneskin. This is why I went positively nuts over the Beguiler. They had rogue skills + illusion/enchantment magic. They were very very weak in combat, worthless against mindless/undead/construct enemies, could not sneak attack, and I couldn't find or disarm traps worth a damn, so a rogue would have still been useful. But I loved being able to deceive and sneak and use my spells creatively to help my party.It would really anger me if I built my character to do this and someone stepped in, snapped their fingers and made ti happen, and hadn't put the effort into it that I did. But that can happen without magic, and that isn't an issue of the magic, but an issue of not communicating with players, and bad behavior at the table.Or in other words, what you are saying to me sounds like "The Swordmage is horning in on the Fighter because the Swordmage is using Magic to do what the Fighter does". They are both defenders.</blockquote>

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