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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DarkKestral" data-source="post: 4178012" data-attributes="member: 40100">Right, that's somewhat fair. However, many of the 3.X stats are basically confined to one set of roles for general usefulness and never even approach 1/3 the usefulness of say.. getting another +1 to nearly all of your attacks or save DC. Why? I'd guess that 90%+ of all rolls in most games are some form of attack roll or save, so buffing your attack with an extra +1 is almost always a 5% effective increase in total ability, while giving another skill point to put in a skill that's never used anyway is almost always a 0% effective increase. Thus the origin of dumpstatting.Which leads me back to your argument: Is Dex 1/3 as useful as Int or Con for a wizard? I'd assume it isn't; I see a fair number of wizards with low dex, but I never see low con or low int wizards unless the player knows it's a bad idea but is doing it anyway.Given the fact that, in 3.5, Ref saves tend to be associated with the weakest monster powers, few classes have an incentive to try for a good ref save unless they have some feat or power that lets them convert some other save into ref saves and already have a large investment in Dex or powers that make ref saves less useful against them. (example: rogues, particularly as most have high Dex and at high enough levels, Imp Uncanny Dodge makes converting things to ref saves not a bad idea) Furthermore, as wizards have so many ways of making physical attacks against them quite difficult before considering dex bonuses to AC, I firmly propose that my assumption is probably a reasonable one, since they have low base HP so Con is a necessary priority and Int is their basic fuel for their save DCs and their way of extending their usefulness in combat via additional spells/day. Plus, monster saves tend to be jacked up high enough that maximizing saves is almost always a good idea until your DCs are 19 points above the saves of the opponent in question, as high level combat often boils down to "whoever fails a save first loses, and failing that, whoever gets init first wins." This makes Int more important, as wizards are the best core class at making opponents force lethal saves in 3.5. Thankfully, Int to Init is found in 3.5 as well, so the primary reason for a wizard to take dex outside of AC is also a possible special ability.The question is: in 4th edition, what stops a player from dumpstatting all but one or two stats? What are the inherent benefits of each stat that make wizards want Str or Dex, fighters Int or Cha, and warlords Dex? If there aren't any, for all practical intents and purposes, there's no point in having base stats that have multiple effects outside of powers. And that's why I agree with Felon here; I don't like the idea that all wizards have to be hardy, agile weaklings with booksmarts and no ability to spot patterns and that repulse those around them with their appearance, lack of personal hygiene, or lack of social skills. (That sounds like the average gamer stereotype, except for the hardy and agile bits...) I want to see wizards that able to lift a 300 lb barbell, or are charming b*****ds who can worm their way into other peoples affections without using a spell, but aren't the absolute best at beating the opponents spell defenses capable mechanically of being just as viable as a Raistlin-type, without it just being fluff. Fluff should show in mechanics, mechanics should show in fluff.</blockquote>

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