Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ariosto" data-source="post: 4905061" data-attributes="member: 80487">We could go around and round about the premise, tossing anecdotal evidence and speculation back and forth.Maybe more productive is looking into ways to appeal more to the casual.A group that's stinky, slovenly, ill-mannered and weird might not have much success regardless of the qualities of the game itself; first impressions can count for a lot.A hefty rules-set can be off-putting unless the casual player does not have to deal with it. I think this is a bit of a hurdle with 4e, especially as powers pile up with the gaining of levels. If one plays frequently, then things become -- and remain! -- familiar. With infrequent play, one may find oneself having to relearn repeatedly.Just looking at a rulebook of 300+ pages can be daunting to someone used to considering 30+ "complex". Axis & Allies, at 32 pp., is probably about the accustomed limit of comfort level for a lot of casual gamers. Basic D&D books twice as long work because they're largely filled with monsters and other stuff for DMs to use as they choose -- and because the descriptions of monsters and magic can be entertaining to read rather than dryly technical.Classic hex-and-counter wargames from Avalon Hill, SPI, etc., were often in the range from 4 pages of basic rules and another 6 to 8 of advanced, to maybe 10 to 12 each (perhaps a few more for scenarios). Even Squad Leader and Rise and Decline of the Third Reich weigh in at only 36 pages (of admittedly small type) each.The digest-sized booklets of the original Dungeons & Dragons and Traveller sets, translated to full-sized (half as many) pages, would be about 55 pp. and 72 pp. respectively -- and most of those are directed at the referee. (Men & Magic would make an 18-page PHB!).Even the 1st ed. AD&D PHB came to only 128 pages. 59 of those were devoted to spells; 10 to psionics, bards, and an alignment graph; 2 to the known planes of existence; 1 to suggested agreements for the division of treasure; and 6 to reference sheets and advertising; leaving 50 pp. of more general interest.Having 30 pages of tactical combat rules in 4e is pretty impressive. RuneQuest (1st ed.) devoted 16 pages (in two chapters) to matters related to fighting, including equipment lists and training rules.In short, the game has become pretty complex (especially in terms of what a player is expected to know) -- and maybe looks even more complicated than it is. The contrast with the "heyday of the early 80s" is pretty notable. The rules-set seems to me pretty solidly directed at the "hard core", as was the previous version. That does not mean it can't have enduring appeal for casual players, but it does seem to suggest that some special attention to their needs may be called for.</blockquote>

Verification