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Message: <blockquote data-quote="nopantsyet" data-source="post: 4906215" data-attributes="member: 3109">I'm going to skip out on the semantic argument and speak more to the heart of the argument. For clarity's sake, when I say "casual," I mean somebody who doesn't read the books in their spare time, doesn't think much about the game except when they're at the table, just like a casual poker player knows the basic rules but doesn't study strategies or practice covering their tells in front of the mirror.That said, let's not forget that in early editions of D&D the burden of the rules fell squarely on the DM's shoulders. Heck, players weren't even supposed to read DMG or MM in those days. The spirit of the game was built on the foundation of DM secrets. So the most complicated rules that players had to deal with were chargen, which you could do from the book, which the DM would have. So you could (and often did) have a "hardcore" DM running regular games for "casual" players. I remember playing in groups where nobody other than the DM even owned a PH and it worked great. But rules have evolved. Now there are many more rules per character than there used to be. It's too much for a DM to know it all. THAC0 may have been counter-intuitive, but that was easily solved with a grid on your char sheet; whereas now we have skills and feats. I expect my players to know the rules for their player's abilities, and unless something triggers my DM's spidey sense I let their understanding ride. It's more than the "casual" gamer is likely to be willing to learn.Also, now we acknowledge the shared experience and responsibility of the game. I expect my players to bring meaningful creative input, not to simply come and roll dice. The expectations of players have elevated significantly while the DMs role has shifted to "arbiter of fun" rather than "keeper of secrets, knower of all things, mouthpiece of the gods." There are plenty of games that are better suited to casual gaming IMO, and it's much easier to get "non-gamer types" on-board for a game of Settlers than D&D. I wouldn't even propose D&D with casual gamers.</blockquote>

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