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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zerakon" data-source="post: 1062517" data-attributes="member: 12921">I'm not convinced (at least not yet). I think there are some flaws with the way you are doing the comparison:(1) "a bard's skill points"Yes the Mage gets a Bard's skill points, but whereas the Bard's skill list is absolutely enormous and includes lots of the "power" skills, the Mage's class skills are: Alchemy, Appraise, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Heal, Knowledge, Profession, Speak Language, and Spellcraft. There's no question in my mind that a bard's skill versatility makes him much more useful as an adventurer. The mage's skill points allow him to be "really knowledgable" which certainly is a reasonable thing for a sage to be. Mages are certainly better than Wizards and Sorcerers in the skill department, but that's by design, and as a tradeoff for lesser spellcasting power.(2) "a fighters feats"Yes, they get almost (one less) as many bonus feats as a fighter, but keep in mind that this is within a system where the Mage must spend essentially 5 to 6 feats - Basic/Expert/Lofty/Master Spell Use, Channeling, Wizardry - just to be on the same playing field as the standard D&D arcane spellcaster. So you can't really look at it and say "wow, a feat every other level - that's crazy!" If they weren't under the Will Power restrictions, you'd clearly be right, but these magic systems are apples and oranges -- or at least apples and pears.(3) "the ability to add class skills or get better with magic on the levels when they do not get feats"Eh. Adding a class skill is cool but not a major power problem as their initial skill list is limited to begin with. The arcane secrets may seem powerful, but they are really a way of causing the mage's Will Points to curve / accelerate as they go up in levels. Gaining 1d8 Will Points per level is extremely inferior to the standard D&D spellcasters when you look at how many Will Points worth of spells the standard spellcasters are gaining each level -- especially at the higher levels.When I do more of my Sorcerer vs Mage comparison, perhaps I can convince you that the Mage isn't overpowered.  Or, perhaps I'll see that you are right. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />-- Zerakon the Game Mage</blockquote>

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