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Message: <blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 992660" data-attributes="member: 5171">I don't think so.  You just gave several examples of possible uses, and there are a bunch more that you can come up with even in a no-FX world.  Let's see -- off the top of my head:Resisting tortureNot getting spooked by a constant barrage of gunfireAvoiding hypnosis or subliminal suggestionsFlying or driving when Bad Things Are Happening (tornado, fiery inferno, hurricane) all around you and trying to drive you crazyNot taking a -2 penalty from an irritating, barely audible noise designed specifically to cause disorientation, headaches, and nausea.Resisting other mental warfare techniques (like the police blasting out bad music in hostage situations)Not throwing down your gun when you see that the evil bad guy has your friend/comrade/lover/spouse/child as a hostage.Continuing to fight even after seeing your friend/comrade/lover/spouse/child being killed because you refused to throw down your gun."But Tacky, you idiot," you say, "all those things could already be happening in an FX game, and they don't require Will saves?  You just roleplay that your character has the willpower to do it or not."Ah, but here's the thing:You're doing a non-FX campaign.You can add and adapt the rules to keep the existing level of complexity when taking out some other element.  For example, in a Middle Ages game that did not have magic, I'd have no problem making different types of nonmagical bonuses for having a certain type of sword, a certain type of grip, a certain type of pommel, a certain type of crossguard, and so on.  I would introduce that level of complexity in order to keep the game fun and varied for people.  People like variety and feeling powerful in interesting ways -- in the Middle Ages, no-magic game, that could be "A-ha, I'm impossible to disarm because I've got this grip and this basket-hilt!"  In a game with magic, I'd never introduce that level of complexity.  It's silly.  But in a no-magic game, it'd be worth it.Same here.  In a magic game, magic is your metaphor.  People in a magic game rarely fall under the bad guy's sway just because he's really persuasive and well-spoken.  They fall under his sway because he has magic, which in this case is a metaphor for being a smooth talker who can get under people's skin.So, in a magic game, your evil bad guy casts Charm Person.In a non-magic game, he talks up the guy, gets under their skin with the Dedicated Hero Insightful stuff, hits their weak points with some Charismatic fast-talking, and eventually the GM would have the target make a Will save or be "befuddled and confused.  Nothing seems clear anymore, but the evil bad guy understands your pain, he's trying to make it better.  He's your true light now."  And so on.Would I do that in a non-magic game?  Unlikely.  The players would be ticked because "That would never happen to my guy unless magic were involved."  But in a game where there is no metaphor to handle these character-defining moments, you can and should add other mechanical checks (rolling the dice) in order to make Will saves genuinely important.  Otherwise, everyone will roleplay that their character has nerves of steel and an iron will and a clear head even in the direst of situations -- which is about as good, roleplaying-wise, as saying, "Yes, but being an unbeatable swordsman who never gets hit even when people try to shoot him at point-blank range is part of my character concept!"</blockquote>

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