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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nyeshet" data-source="post: 2914763" data-attributes="member: 18363">Then we will have to agree to disagree, for I see the stronger will in Timothy rather than Jonathon. Timothy has the force of will, the stubbornness, the verve, needed to resist the voice, while Jonathon as none of this. He may see the dangers, the troubles, following the voice will result in, but he lacks the strength of will to resist the compulsion. Being perceptive does not necessarily mean having a strong will. I have known perceptive people, and not all of them have a strong or forceful will power. I have also known individuals of strong will and stubborn nature, and virtually all of them automatically resist anything that seems to be pressing them towards one option over another - resisting at times on principle if not sheer stubbornness. They do not necessarily fully understand the situation, they may not even make the wisest choice - indeed some of their choices have been notably lacking in wisdom, but they are strong of will power irregardless. That suggests to me that will power and wisdom / perception are two different things, and I can't help but notice that nearly all of those that have such a strong will are also the types that tend to be able to resist being pressed into a situation, conversation, or idea they don't like, that tend to be well able to steer a conversation in the direction they want it, that tend to be well able to gather others to their cause and encourage others to take on their view point. Their arguments are not necessarily without holes, but the sheer force of their presense tends to have some overlook - or ignore - such tendencies. All of these are traits associated with Charisma ability: its skills, its associated feats, etc. Similarly, if you look to literature, you find that those able to hold off vampires (ie: turn undead), charm (not literally, usually) a crowd with music, or bend reality to their will (ie: sorcerers) have strong wills - but not always are they wise or perceptive. Similarly, there are many characters in literature that are wise and sage-like, but have no real strength of will. All this suggests to me that Wisdom is not the ability to which a Will power save should be applied. Perception, yes, but Willpower, no. This leaves Intellect and Charisma - and Intellect is obviously not a good choice for will power. As for Charisma, there are already precidents in the game, in literature, etc that lend credit to applying the Willpower save unto it. Those that Turn Undead must need have a high Charisma if they wish to succeed. Those that utilize Bardic music to fascinate and charm others - that is to say overshadowing / overwhelming the will of another with their own - utilize Charima and needs have a high score in that ability if they wish to succeed. Perhaps your view of Charisma is limited to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Gather Information? If you do not look at all that Charisma affects, you cannot see the effectiveness of these arguments, I admit. By your arguements a low Cha / high Wis bard should be more effective in using bardic music to fascinate, suggest, etc others. But that is not the case. Similarly, your arguements seem to suggest that a low Cha / high Wis Cleric should be better at Turning undead than a Cleric having a high Cha / low Wis. Yet again this is not the case. Wisdom relates to awareness, perception, enlightenment, common sense. It does not relate to strength of will, force of personality, stubbornness, or however you wish to call the willpower save.</blockquote>

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