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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9764918" data-attributes="member: 87792">Shadowdark is IIRC 300 pages including its DMG and MM. But I find the size of a "full" character sheet a much better indication and comparator especially on an exception based game. By full character sheet I mean including things you might need to reference in play that are non-standard, like spells.Numerically a 5e level 5 cleric (and yes I consider a full caster fair given that about half of all characters are full casters; we aren't talking druid here) has as basics:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Six stats</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Six stat modifiers</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Six saving throws of which at least two won't be the stat modifier</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">17 skills of which at least four won't be the stat modifier</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Two or more languages or tool proficiencies</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Too many hit points to track on a single d20</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An armour class</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Some hit dice</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A spell attack number and Spell Save DC</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Possibly one (maybe even two) weapon attack bonus depending what they attack with</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A feat unless you went full ASI</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A background special ability or feat</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A speed value</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Three or four special abilities from their ancestry</li> </ul>Whew! And we haven't even started on the class yet. The class (Cleric) and subclass (Life cleric) bring:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Channel Divinity (two options)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Destroy Undead</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A subclass feature (e.g. Disciple of Life)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Four cantrips</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">About eight or nine prepared non-cantrip spells</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A further six prepared spells from their subclass</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Three levels of spell slots to track</li> </ul>And those spells each contain four lines of basic data plus at least a paragraph of rules.You can argue that 5e is the lightest mainline D&D  since the white box (4e is a credible contender) but it's a pretty heavy game even if it's no 3.X and is more coherent than AD&D.</blockquote>

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