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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cergorach" data-source="post: 9765128" data-attributes="member: 725">I honestly think that's a bad analysis of the situation, both are available and supported in the market. You mentioned PF2e, but also things like Shadowrun are crunch heavy. A lot of the crunch heavy games are older, GURPS, WFRP, The Dark Eye, etc. But I would also call Lancer crunch heavy, which is pretty new.Pnp RPGs are a product, when making them you look at supply and demand, you also look at a cost/benefit analysis. As Morrus already mentioned, crunch heavy games are more expensive to make (including way more play-testing). So the cost is high, is there enough demand to justify actually making it? There is enough supply in the market already in many different niches/settings, so why bother if it will cost more then it probably will ever make?With low level crunch systems the cost is lower, so the point where it becomes profitable is far sooner. This allows for far more pnp RPGs to be made that are easier to produce (cost) and often also have a smaller scope. Thus allowing the filling of smaller niches. This lower cost also opens up the door to far too many vanity press publications, but at a cost of maybe a car, instead of their house and savings...I also wonder if MMOs have not curbed a lot of the demand for more complex pnp RPGs, it's not for nothing that WotC felt the need to compete with WoW when they made D&D 4e... Back in the day, the amount of MMOs were either non-existent (no public Internet yet) or were quite limited and didn't have a wide appeal. That has changed. I could get my 'complexity' meter filled by playing something like EVE Online (spreadsheet warrior!) and wouldn't need to do complex stuff with pnp RPGs anymore either.I also wonder if D&D 3.5e with just the PHB/DMG/MM was so much more crunchy then D&D 5e with just the PHB/DMG/MM? A little, sure, but with D&D 3.5e most of the crunch came from expansions imho. Something WotC hasn't done a lot with D&D 5e. But third parties have, just as in the D20 age... And if someone wants to do something crunch heavy they can often hitch a ride on an 'open license' without having to reinvent the wheel. Like make something that works with PF2e or SF2e...</blockquote>

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