Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="aramis erak" data-source="post: 9769188" data-attributes="member: 6779310">I'll raise and offer up a bunch that are more complex than AD&D... many from the AD&D 2e era, some the 1e era. And T5? Marc's been working on it since 2014... and has the core out...<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tucholka's TriTac system... many many complex rules, in smaller print, with less art, and while better organized, so much more cruft. Armor by location... each location being about a square decimeter. I have run AD&D 1, even with most of the rules in use... but this one? Broke me.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">LEG's Phoenix Command. 4 minutes using a calculator to work through the charts for one attack. I'm told experience gets it down to 3. Sure, you know which organs are damaged, and how bad, but figuring out the healing time is done after combat, and can take a while to figure I've run it. It got 3 sessions, one of which was 6hrs getting 3 characters done. The second was a single small fight.. mostly... in 5 hours; the first two hours of session 3 were finishing it. Automation would make it playable for me... wasn't an option at the time.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wilf ..Blackhaus/FGU's Chivalry and Sorcery 1st ed. Rolemaster numbers of tables. As a typed manuscript, it would have been at least 2.5" thick, but it was optically reduced to 50%, so 4 typed pages per printed page, and a hair over 1/2" thick, crunch galore, and like AD&D, not entirely optimal organization. Covers more ground, too, as it includes landholding. the more recent editons split into multiple better organized books, but keep the tables, and replace the skill mechanics. Rebirth edition is comparable to AD&D in complexity and rules crunch, as it kept the crunch of 1E, but in a much better package. Haven't bothered with it since I got Pendragon 4th, as it does the genre easier. Much easier.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">dreams: a 3/4" thick sheaf of punched mimeographed pages inside a shrink wrap. Character gen is scattered throughout the first third, it lacks a bestiary, and is full of items that clearly are intended to do like Arduin did... but failing on so many points. Nifty ideas in a Gygaxian spew more imprentrable.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Traveller 5. over 500 pages of which about 50 are not mechanics. No gear lists, but instead processes to build your gear lists. Same for vehicles. There are sample ships... I've run CT1, CT2, MT, TNE, T4, T20,  MgT 1ePT, MgT 1e, T2300, 2300AD... but I can barely ford my way through the mire that is the world gen in T5... and that's the simplest subset of the rules, and the closest to the other editions I've run. (I've not played/run MgT2, GT, nor GTIW of the official versions; HT was only for some solo brainstorming.)</li> </ul>DH isn't more complex than 5E. It's about dead on par, maybe a bit easier, as it's fewer exceptions to standard mechanics in class design. It also lacks the niche protections.BRP and Mythras are both about on par with 5E complexity wise, perhaps less since they deviate from core mechanics less.GURPS and Hero are argued both ways; GURPS uses more crunch in play; Hero uses more in Character Gen, front loading it.In play, Rolemaster is less complex and more self consistent than 5E; most of its complexity is character generation and advancement. And that of the core 12 classes, 9 are casters. 6 of those? In D&D, they'd be stacked with special abilities, but RM only does those as spells. The issue is all the optional material in splats... there's a 7 page multi-column checklist of options, not counting new classes and their spell lists... in one of the splats.Spacemaster is the same game as Rolemaster, just different classes and <s>spells</s> psions.You don't see pseudoclones/retroclones of Phoenix Command, TriTac or Web Game System.  You do see retro-/pseudo- clones of RM/SM (I'm too lazy to look up the names at the moment; they streamline a few bits here and there.) And of AD&D (both 1e and 2e had clones; the 2e one seems to be off the net now). And of BRP (see also Mythras, Jackals {a BRP pseudoclone - enough different that it's its own thing, but close enough to see what was lifted})The ones at the top of this post? They all put crunch majorly into the play-space, not the generation/advancement spaces.</blockquote>

Verification