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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6094472" data-attributes="member: 82106">Well, sure, DDN isn't exactly like ANY specific prior edition in specific mechanical terms. However it is more like some than others in various ways. Mechanically it reminds me most overall of late 2e. In terms of things like pacing it reminds me of AD&D as well. The skill system is not identical with 3e's but it does bear similarities in terms of its implications and use. Nowhere does 4e show up there. In no larger sense is DDN ever like 4e. I agree that DDN is CLEARLY built by people who are highly conscious of 4e's design, and have in some sense borrowed/been informed by it. OTOH they have utterly rejected every element of 4e in terms of play style, pacing, game design philosophy, etc. Sure, we can find traces of 4e-isms, but stylistically IMHO DDN is basically a more polished rewrite of 2e (and may emerge closer to 3e depending on exactly how they handle MCing and whatever equivalent of PP/PrC they adopt, etc).</blockquote>Because as I noted, it's not just the codified "short rest" (which creates the "Encounter" resource unit), it's the short rest that allows you to non-magically restore HP.  That has never been in any edition except 4e.  This is what I see in 5e that gives me the patience to wait for the 4e stuff I want to see.  By including the codified short rest, they allow groups to adjust healing, modifiying the lethality of the game without having to make across the board changes to damage or monster HP, while at the same time creating a space in which they can design encounter powers for those who want them, as the Warlock demonstrated.  The structure is there -- it just hasn't been built on.[/QUOTE]While it is certainly true that 4e is the edition that introduced the TERM 'short rest' and thus created a 'hook' in the mechanics for things to latch onto the concept isn't new. Every AD&D party after a fight would stop, cast CLWs, use First Aid (in 2e), maybe cast other spells if needed to fix whatever ails people, drink potions, renew any protections (IE Stone Skin), cast Identify, disable traps, loot, etc, then move on. Notice that DDN lacks 'encounter' resources largely (there are a few, but there is no general category of encounter powers/spells currently, though it sounds like maybe 'signature spells' are doing that, I am not entirely sure). Yes, there are Hit Dice, but you can't just use them like HS, they don't supply a limit on healing, and they can't be used during an encounter. They simply provide a bonus set of hit points you can use first aid to unlock. Because they don't gate healing (IE 4e has encounter healing powers coupled with HS expenditure to use them, DDN has daily healing powers that have nothing to do with hit dice) HD don't produce the same sort of pacing mechanic they do in 4e. In effect DDN's pacing is AD&D pacing, you can proceed as long as the cleric has CLWs, and the other PCs have a small slightly 4e-like buffer of HD. Once the cleric has burned his last CLW the party is over, head back to the surface. Now, yes, it is POSSIBLE that DDN could allow for some module to build on HD, by adding HD expending healing powers to leader classes in place of things like CLW. Finally, I'd like to note that the whole 'lethality' thing is a total misunderstanding of 4e's purpose in providing HS. It wasn't to 'lower the lethality of the game', that's preposterous, DMs control that with how deadly they make things. HS serve 2 related purposes. The fundamental purpose is to allow for a lot of 'cliff hangers', HS add tension to the game. The PCs (and read [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] above about assymetric monster/PC rules in 4e) are designed to be 'knocked back' by the monsters. A 4e fight mechanically will be shaped by the rules into a plot. In round 1 the monsters barrel in loaded for game, blast off their encounter/recharge powers. The PCs are instantly knocked back/wrongfooted, their counter-attack has almost no effect, oh no! (due to monsters have a good chunk of hit points). In rounds 2 and 3 the PCs struggle to reassert their control of the situation and work back towards victory. Their ability to tap into HS and receive leader healing as well as controllers and leaders gaining the tactical initiative while the defender pins down key enemy forces SHOULD lead to the PC re-assertion. Rounds 4 and 5 are then the denouement, possibly with 'last minute surprise' effects (a lurker coming in for a second run, an enemy leader/elite triggering recharged/bloody activated powers, etc). THAT is the purpose of HS in 4e. SECONDARILY they act as an HP recharge mechanism between fights, and they transform the party wide CLW pool held centrally in the cleric by a per-PC resource (IE they create a different type of resource game where the requirement is teamwork to make sure you spread damage around effectively).  The DDN HD mechanic currently doesn't provide in-combat pacing at all, and is a much weaker provider of a resource mechanic for healing. Obviously if Second Wind were reintroduced that would help, but again an encounter heal and things like potions that use HD, etc would be needed. It isn't impossible that stuff could appear in DDN.It isn't that I don't think DDN has some decent ideas either, and some of them would work well in 4e. I think the DDN HD mechanic is not too bad, I just think it goes too far. I think using a dice roll for one thing isn't great, that was another aspect of HS, that by being RELIABLE you could fairly pace yourself. Even if you assume DDN's HD are as strong a pacing system as HS were, one or two dice rolls has a huge impact on pacing. I really don't think dice belong in pacing. That is just causing problems. I don't even understand why that would be desirable in ANY sort of game. It is way not what I want to see in MY game.[/QUOTE]

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