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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jgbrowning" data-source="post: 331189" data-attributes="member: 5724">ok, lets argue here <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />ok lets argue. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />By the SRD defination a "glamers spell changes a subject's sensory qualities making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear."ok i agree so far .  and i read SKR rant (excerpt below)<a href="http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/invismindaffecting.html" target="_blank">http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/invismindaffecting.html</a>"Invisibility doesn't affect minds. It affects light. It affects the light around the target creature. That's why it is a "Target: You or a creature [touched]" spell instead of a "Target: everyone in line of sight" spell. Invisibility is not a mind-affecting spell. "and i have a lot of problems with that for various reasons most of them hard to explain.. so bare with me...1. if invisibility effects light, changing light's sensory qualities as opposed to changing the sensory qualities of the "creature" or "object" touched....  there wouldn't be a saving throw.  light would never get a saving throw, even if it was the light around someone who didnt want to be invisible.  nor would magic resistance stop invisibility.2. if silence effects sound, changing sounds sensory qualities as opposed to changing the sensory qualites of the "creature" or "object" touched.... there wouldn't be a saving throw for silence either.  EVEN when cast on an opponent, because you're not actually targeting the oppenant, your targeting the sound around an opponant remember?, which as an object wouldn't get a saving throw since its harmless.Why would MR ever effect silence if it's REALLY effecting sound?shall i go on?  sure lets...3. what happened to all that light that was bouncing off the characters before the invisibility spell?  still bouncing around in the special sheath, it would have to be since its not getting out or people could see the invisible creature?  is it collecting more and more light and not letting it out?  4. if the sheath actually BENDS light, how does the character within the sheath of light see OUT, with no light coming in because the sheath BENDS it all around the character?  If the sheath lets light in, so the player can see how does it bend it so others cant see the character unless the light never gets out of the sheath.  Wouldn't all that light build up over time until the creature inside the sheat was effectifly blinded?anyway i think you get my point.  It would be easier if they would have just NOT made invisibility and silence illusion spells, because they really break so many of the illusion spell rules.Now transmutation......  that would fit much better "transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition."  seems to fit perfectly.  Suddenly the properties of light and sound are CHANGED.. so we can just say its MAGIC and not have deal with all the faux explination stuff that happens when we have to deal with illusions that dont allow saves when interacted with.joe b.</blockquote>

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