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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbsintheCurdle1" data-source="post: 1113594" data-attributes="member: 14007">From the 3.5 SRD (snipped):Fair warning: I'm going to get all philosophical here, to very little end. My feelings won't be hurt at all if you skip this. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Maybe it's a semantics issue, but having Wisdom represent "willpower" keeps nagging at me. The term willpower is used more often to represent "force of personality" than anything to do with the "being in tune with things, perceptive, intuitive" trait that I associate with D&D Wisdom. I will happily accept two different kinds of willpower: 1) "Quiet" willpower- wisdom- is having your head on straight; having good habits of thought, regardless of how clever or knowledgeable you are. Good priorities; self-reflection; always knowing why you're doing what you're doing. It's what you use to know and overcome your own bad habits, and the self-reflection part is what clues you in that someone is using an enchantment on you and lets you fight it off. So far, so good. 2) "Loud" willpower might more accurately be represented by D&D Charisma. It's willpower as the term is more commonly used- the will to achieve; to mold the world (and the people around you) to your desire. Wisdom may give you a basis for self-confidence, but charisma is- at least in part- the appearance of self-confidence, whether justified or not.  Okay, well, will saves are mostly (all?) against enchantment-type effects, and I just said that "quiet" willpower is your best defense against that, and that fits the rules as they are. So, you're asking, why worry about all this? Who cares? But see, fiction doesn't have the hero overcoming the evil enchantress' spell of terror through quiet contemplation of his internal self-model... the hero throws off the alien influence through 'sheer grit' - determination - stubbornness - even cussedness. He doesn't say "Hmm, this doesn't seem right", he says "Screw this!". Definitely the "loud" version of willpower. In fact it's usually the square-jawed, stubborn fighter types that do it best, usually with a good burst of testosterone-fueled anger. Not something I associate with "wisdom". Not to be sexist or anything. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes    :rolleyes:"  data-smilie="11"data-shortname=":rolleyes:" /> I don't know what, if anything, I want to do about this. I'm sure class balance would be all messed up by basing Will saves on Charisma. Wouldn't it? I'm not sure I believe in the Ultimate Fine-Tunedness Of Class Balance that every D&D designer has assured us of since Gygax. Don't try this at home, kids! We're professionals. Really! But I'll save that rant for the next time that particular topic reincarnates on here.  A lot depends on how you play enchantments- are they subtle things that you believe are your own feelings until you recognize the discrepancy (see many charm threads about whether or not you know what happened when it wears off)? Then Wisdom works fine- once you recognize the alien nature of your feelings, you throw it off. But a lot of enchantments aren't like that- you know darn well what's happening, but you can't help yourself... without that burst of anger/cussedness/determination. You could consider these things to be measured by Wisdom- by the book, we're supposed to. But to me, it fits so much better with Charisma, and so poorly with the other characteristics that Wisdom measures, that it sticks in my craw. Maybe it wouldn't be bad to distinguish between types of Will saves- your class bonus stays the same; just use one stat modifier or the other depending on what you're saving against. I'm positive 99% of you are going to think it's way too much trouble for too little 'flavor benefit', but I thought I'd throw the idea out there anyway.</blockquote>

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