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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Estlor" data-source="post: 2726857" data-attributes="member: 7261">I'll confess, there's not much I can add to this discussion because, as strictly written, I'm not a big fan of the "Dungeon" that 3e tried to take us back into.  It might make some sense from a wargame perspective to place your combatants in an enclosed space like a castle or a dank tunnel and let them bash each other to nibbly bits, but from the perspective of the internally logical and consistent setting, dungeons are a bunch of crap.  First of all, what sort of purpose does a dungeon serve?  It's not like we're dealing in lots of captives that need to be placed somewhere.  It's not like some mad wizard would need to dig a stinking hole in the ground to hide his evil experiments in when, as a commoner, if someone pointed to a tower and said, "That's where the mad wizard Bargle lives," I'd be sure to stay far away from there.  No need to go through the cost and expense of building a dungeon, stocking it with traps, luring in these monsters that would gladly eat the wizard alive, and just waiting for some foolish "hero" to come snooping so you don't have to buy cows or goats to feed said monsters this month.  It's just batty!"But wait," you say.  "What if the dungeon used to be something, like a mighty fortress, that has fallen into disuse and the monsters roaming in it have settled there because there aren't all that many people around to threaten them."  I come back with, "You ninny!  That's not a dungeon, that's a ruined fortress!"And we're suddenly splitting hairs.But we're not, really, because my absolute loathing of the dungeon has forced me to expand my understanding of what "Dungeon" means.  Just like the "Dragon" part of D&D doesn't literally have to mean big scaly lizards that breath fire (chlorine gas, lightning, acid, cold), "Dungeon" doesn't have to mean a stinking pit in the earth full of wandering monsters.  It does a disservice to "Dungeon" for the designers of 3e to imply the game got away from dungeons and needs to go back to them.  They're talking like the ancient forests, wizard's towers, enemy forts, and extra-planar endless staircases are somehow inferior add-ons that cheapen the experience of the game.  Yeah, a dungeon is great and evocative (if you suppress your natural urge to disbelieve it's even possible), but there's so much more to D&D than the dungeon and the dragon.  Let me ask you something, is killing ghouls in a dungeon that much better than chopping up illithids on their pholgiston-powered spelljaming ship's deck?  I thought not.Yeah, I'll end this rant here.  I'm still fishing for Elements of Magic II, but let's be honest, Alzirus's post tops this rant easy.</blockquote>

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