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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kaomera" data-source="post: 5142849" data-attributes="member: 38357">You could grab a songblade dagger as an off-hand implement and use any Bard implement power. You wouldn't get the dual implement bonus with your dilettante, of course. Or you could grab AIP and use whatever. Already having Bardic Dilettante is an issue with 4e being a growing system, new stuff comes out and existing characters often can't take full advantage of it. You could retrain the bard MC for Adept Dilettante, if you wanted to. Or, actually, I guess you could grab that Wizard power you want and Combat Virtuoso (the Bard MC should qualify you for it) and let your Sorcerer damage bonus with arcane spells take care of the damage end of things. (I wasn't aware that you could use the implements you can wield from Sorcerer with Wizard spells, actually... Oops...)I've thought about this (and thought about it some more because of this thread). The problem is that implement proficiency isn't the same as weapon proficiency. Weapons fall into nice, neat groups, and except for ranged vs. melee their applicability is mostly pretty universal. Rogue powers are one exception - they pretty much all call out a specific set of weapons they can be used with. Implements are the reverse - you need to deal with both "proficiency" (ie: I can wield this implement) and "applicability" (ie: this weapon works with this power). You aren't supposed to be able to use a staff with a Bard power (by default) any more than you're supposed to be able to use a bastard sword with a Rogue power (by default).Yeah, I've looked at the Monk powers, and they're pretty sweet. But I just don't agree that dilettante amounts to nothing more than a series of bad options. Every choice you make has consequences - some of them are unforeseen or even unforeseeable. Choosing an MC or a Dilettante power have consequences - some of these consequences limit the utility of some of your other options. The two are linked by the rules; if you take an implement dilettante power you need the associated MC feat to be effective with it.OK, apparently I've gotten confused somewhere. I was convinced that you couldn't use implements with a class power with out the class feature or the line in the MC. Oops...Yeah, ok, so I'm actually better off that I thought. Sweet. I'll have to go have a second look at those Wizard powers.The Dex thing is me misthinking, sorry. I meant Int. 16 Int...And as far as Virtue of Cunning, the build listed in the PHB2 is Int & implement based, but the only thing Int does for the actual virtue is extend it's range, and with a base of 5 it covers a lot of ground as-is.. There's all of 7 Bard powers with a Cunning rider, and there's Intelligence riders on melee and ranged weapon attacks... I really don't see any need to tie any of the Virtues to a specific type of power.OK, I've been replying on the assumption that you where talking pre-AD vs. post-AD; I think you're talking AD as originally published vs. compiled-issue AD. The original version didn't seem too broken to me, but it did seem really good for grabbing class-related feats without actually taking that class MC. The implement rider I think could possibly be added, it seems to be a standard feature of MC feats now. But the way implements work seems to be intended to restrict who can actually use which implements, and with no ability requirements this might trample on that a bit, I dunno...Personally I don't look at anything in Dungeon / Dragon seriously until it's compiled. Before that it's little more than a preview, IMO. It's one of the problems with having to push out articles to the website every weekday... With the books I'm actually petty impressed with the errata, I'd rather the fix stuff than ignore it. But with the DDI I do sometimes kinda feel like they should have taken a bit more time before rushing stuff out. I'd like to see the magazines back in actual print, too, but that ain't happening either...</blockquote>

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