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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 5977708" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>And this should be illuminating (even though it was postulated beforehand - see pemerton's thread on SCs) and illustrative of the disconnect between those that feel Skill Challenges are nothing more than Complex Skill Checks. This is because there is a presupposition (and a demand for rigid adherence to) of simulatory, binary (due to the nature of d20 pass/fail skill mechanics) outcomes of singular skill checks. If this is your presupposition (and more - your demand of rigid adherence to), then naturally you're going to say Skill Challenges are nothing more than Complex Skill checks. But then when people say: "No, they are not, they are closed-systems with "fiction first" philosophy to broaden the scope of outcomes, from check to check, which should (in practice) lead to interesting decision-points and dynamic results (rather than the predictable...time and again...results of linear flow from binary skill check to binary skill check...where the ultimate result is a linear response to the last skill check in the series). Most unfortunately, I'm in agreement with Crazy Jerome below. This illuminating piece above is going to be lost in the ether, never to be heard from again, and we're going to have this same worthless exchange over...and over...and over again. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I feel you're right. I was going to write a post with some simple mathematics and engineering tenets to easily show how perturbing a balanced, predictable system to up the standard deviation from the mean response (thus making the system now - unbalanced or "swingy") is considerably easier than post-hoc quantifying each element of an unbalanced system (mandatory) and then measuring each first order function (and then second order function as you move deeper into the framework) response of a perturbance for every system integrated into it in order to narrow the standard deviation from the mean response. But honestly, I'm not sure it would matter given that I would expect it would be lost in the ether or get swallowed up by the signal:noise ratio. </p><p> </p><p>And finally, I'm glad to entertain you Libramarian. I was hoping for some serious engagement but if you can derive some measure of entertainment from my posts, of the "American Comedy" genre of entertainment, then good on ya. I suppose one could be worse things than a clown.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 5977708, member: 6696971"] And this should be illuminating (even though it was postulated beforehand - see pemerton's thread on SCs) and illustrative of the disconnect between those that feel Skill Challenges are nothing more than Complex Skill Checks. This is because there is a presupposition (and a demand for rigid adherence to) of simulatory, binary (due to the nature of d20 pass/fail skill mechanics) outcomes of singular skill checks. If this is your presupposition (and more - your demand of rigid adherence to), then naturally you're going to say Skill Challenges are nothing more than Complex Skill checks. But then when people say: "No, they are not, they are closed-systems with "fiction first" philosophy to broaden the scope of outcomes, from check to check, which should (in practice) lead to interesting decision-points and dynamic results (rather than the predictable...time and again...results of linear flow from binary skill check to binary skill check...where the ultimate result is a linear response to the last skill check in the series). Most unfortunately, I'm in agreement with Crazy Jerome below. This illuminating piece above is going to be lost in the ether, never to be heard from again, and we're going to have this same worthless exchange over...and over...and over again. I feel you're right. I was going to write a post with some simple mathematics and engineering tenets to easily show how perturbing a balanced, predictable system to up the standard deviation from the mean response (thus making the system now - unbalanced or "swingy") is considerably easier than post-hoc quantifying each element of an unbalanced system (mandatory) and then measuring each first order function (and then second order function as you move deeper into the framework) response of a perturbance for every system integrated into it in order to narrow the standard deviation from the mean response. But honestly, I'm not sure it would matter given that I would expect it would be lost in the ether or get swallowed up by the signal:noise ratio. And finally, I'm glad to entertain you Libramarian. I was hoping for some serious engagement but if you can derive some measure of entertainment from my posts, of the "American Comedy" genre of entertainment, then good on ya. I suppose one could be worse things than a clown. [/QUOTE]
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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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