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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 5980726" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Chaochou's clarity aid of "task resolution" versus "confilct resolution" is considerably helpful to illuminate the moving parts of this discussion and the varying philosophies. I'm going to use the term "conflict resolution" within the framework of "skill challenge" below to designate the aim of the framed scene.</p><p> </p><p>I have two scenarios below that I have constructed (and provided contextual information as to their mechanical relevance) below. A few things regarding each of these:</p><p> </p><p>1) Both of them are within the framework of a "skill challenge."</p><p>2) Both of them are means interpreted within the framework of the "skill challenge" toward the end of "conflict resolution." They are not, in and of themselves, efforts at "task resolution" whereby the resolution of the skill check is a legitimate end unto itself.</p><p>3) They will be designated as middle and end (in terms of the skill check's chronological order, relative to all skill checks, during the effort toward "conflict resolution."</p><p>4) Narrative Context will explain what has passed, within the fiction, to this point.</p><p>5) Mechanical Context will explain the relevant resources that the character can bring to bear.</p><p>4) Both of these examples will have a looser than linear, companion, fictional representation than that of an assumed standard, fictional representation of mundane "task resolution."</p><p>5) ** Assume both of these components of "conflict resolution" and their fictional counterparts manifest ONLY ONCE in the entire lifetime of the character within the fiction. Assume they will have literally HUNDREDS of times where they will pass/fail task resolutions (outside of a skill challenge) whereby they will have a linear feedback to that success/failure within the scope of the fiction (eg Pass/Fail Balance/Acrobatics - Retain Balance/Lose Balance). Therefore, this situation is a clear outlier within the framework of their interface with the physical manifestation of cause/effect - less than 1 % of his experience.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Skill Challenge 1 - Pursuit Evasion with Stolen Relic </p><p> </p><p>Conflict Resolution - Does the character escape/evade pursuit and does he maintain the pilfered property?</p><p> </p><p>Chronology: Middle</p><p> </p><p>Narrative Context: The character has been tasked by village elders to steal an idol, a holy relic from a temple of snake men, and bring it back to the elders for a ritual that will undo a curse upon the villagers. The character has snuck in the temple, stolen the relic without conflict, been spotted on his way out, has trucked it out of there on horse and is on his way back to the village. He is currently riding hard, keeping his head down to avoid enemy fire, attempting to navigate treacherous terrain while trying to stay present enough in the moment to multi-task and find landmarks that will lead him to safety and end the chase.</p><p> </p><p>Mechanical Context: The character has Ride/Athletics, Nature, Stealth, Perception, Knowledge Local.</p><p> </p><p>Skill being used: Ride/Athletics - Failure.</p><p> </p><p>Check Result and Resultant Fiction: The character fails the Ride/Athletics check. Instead of an advantageous result, adversity manifests. Instead of distancing himself from pursuit, pursuit gains. Instead of moving to an area to obscure himself from his pursuit, he has moved to an area that corners him. Over the next rise, a gorge (distance across is a very difficult DC to jump on horseback) drops some 150 feet to rocky, river rapids...depth unknown. He knows there is a landbridge that goes across this gorge...but where is it? </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Skill Challenge 2 - Find the Entrance of the Gobbledeegook Monastery Through the Recovery of the Lore Captured Within the Lost Scrolls of Bob the Monk</p><p> </p><p>Conflict Resolution - Does the character locate the Lost Scrolls of Bob the Monk, and if he does, does he learn the location of the entrance of Gobbledeegook Monastery? </p><p> </p><p>Chronology: End</p><p> </p><p>Narrative Context: The character has followed rumors in successive villages that led him to a high mountain pass, isolated from the world. He braved the extreme environmental conditions. He climbed the mountain. He followed the dung tracks of a courtier on muleback and then stealthily followed the courtier to the entrance of the monastery. He cannot enter through the front door so he scouts out an alternate entrance. He climbs the walls and deftly navigates a thin, icy wall that he uses as in impromptu breezeway from one tower to the next. He unlocks an out of the way entrance to a far tower door. At the bottom of the tower he finds a sub-basement entrance. Inside, the walls are scrawled with odd markings. Try as he might, he is unable to ascertain enough of the pictographs on the walls to navigate. He finds a monk and stealthily follows him until he finds himself in the catacombs of an ancient library. Therein, he locates the ancient scrolls with Bob the Monks sigil. He lays them out on a table and attempts to decipher the arcane writing and skim through it for the relevant information. He's discovered and in the ensuing melee a monk torches the ancient scrolls! The lore, if it was there, is lost! How will he find the entrance of Gobbledeegook Monastery?</p><p> </p><p>Mechanical Context: The character has Climb/Athletics, Endurance, Insight (Decipher Script/Appraise, Sense Motive), Nature, Stealth, Streetwise/Gather Information, Perception, Knowledge History</p><p> </p><p>Skill being used: Insight (if he is deciphering) or Knowledge History (if he is skimming for relevant information within the text as a landmark toward what he is looking for within the text) - Failure.</p><p> </p><p>Check Result and Resultant Fiction: The character fails the Insight/Decipher Script check or Knowledge History check (contingent upon the chosen skill/how the preceding fiction of the book was conveyed). He was at the edge of his destiny. Ultimate success was at hand. Or was the relevant information actually within the text? We may never know. Instead of his goal being attained, he is battling for his life in the library catacombs within the belly of an ancient, remotely located edifice. Perhaps the library catches on fire and it spreads in the chaos of the melee? Perhaps the entirety of the monastery comes crumbling down and he must escape? Whatever the immediate result, he will need to find an alternate source of ancient lore if he is to locate and enter Gobbledeegook Monastery. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Conclusion: If the above characters' understanding of the world, and the meta-mechanics governing it, is divorced from their respective players' understanding (** and 5 is assumed to be true** ) then how is it that (i) the character will be inclined to ruminate with incredulity over the subtleties of cause/effect in this singular moment, (ii) the player loses agency, (iii) the player's immersion has become diluted? </p><p>If all of the above (and 5) is true, why would the first character think that his failure to maintain focus on spurring on his horse while navigating treacherous terrain, with deadly pursuit at his heels, with ultimate stakes (his life and the villages) led to a gorge manifesting over the next ridge? </p><p>If all of the above (and 5) is true, why would the second character think that his failure to decipher the script or locate the lore via skimming by way of historical navigation (the final failure of the skill challenge which leads to the consequences of failure of the outlined Conflict Resolution) has caused either the lore to not be within the text, to disappear from the text, or for him to be caught in the act and the text to be burned in the ensuing melee?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 5980726, member: 6696971"] Chaochou's clarity aid of "task resolution" versus "confilct resolution" is considerably helpful to illuminate the moving parts of this discussion and the varying philosophies. I'm going to use the term "conflict resolution" within the framework of "skill challenge" below to designate the aim of the framed scene. I have two scenarios below that I have constructed (and provided contextual information as to their mechanical relevance) below. A few things regarding each of these: 1) Both of them are within the framework of a "skill challenge." 2) Both of them are means interpreted within the framework of the "skill challenge" toward the end of "conflict resolution." They are not, in and of themselves, efforts at "task resolution" whereby the resolution of the skill check is a legitimate end unto itself. 3) They will be designated as middle and end (in terms of the skill check's chronological order, relative to all skill checks, during the effort toward "conflict resolution." 4) Narrative Context will explain what has passed, within the fiction, to this point. 5) Mechanical Context will explain the relevant resources that the character can bring to bear. 4) Both of these examples will have a looser than linear, companion, fictional representation than that of an assumed standard, fictional representation of mundane "task resolution." 5) ** Assume both of these components of "conflict resolution" and their fictional counterparts manifest ONLY ONCE in the entire lifetime of the character within the fiction. Assume they will have literally HUNDREDS of times where they will pass/fail task resolutions (outside of a skill challenge) whereby they will have a linear feedback to that success/failure within the scope of the fiction (eg Pass/Fail Balance/Acrobatics - Retain Balance/Lose Balance). Therefore, this situation is a clear outlier within the framework of their interface with the physical manifestation of cause/effect - less than 1 % of his experience. Skill Challenge 1 - Pursuit Evasion with Stolen Relic Conflict Resolution - Does the character escape/evade pursuit and does he maintain the pilfered property? Chronology: Middle Narrative Context: The character has been tasked by village elders to steal an idol, a holy relic from a temple of snake men, and bring it back to the elders for a ritual that will undo a curse upon the villagers. The character has snuck in the temple, stolen the relic without conflict, been spotted on his way out, has trucked it out of there on horse and is on his way back to the village. He is currently riding hard, keeping his head down to avoid enemy fire, attempting to navigate treacherous terrain while trying to stay present enough in the moment to multi-task and find landmarks that will lead him to safety and end the chase. Mechanical Context: The character has Ride/Athletics, Nature, Stealth, Perception, Knowledge Local. Skill being used: Ride/Athletics - Failure. Check Result and Resultant Fiction: The character fails the Ride/Athletics check. Instead of an advantageous result, adversity manifests. Instead of distancing himself from pursuit, pursuit gains. Instead of moving to an area to obscure himself from his pursuit, he has moved to an area that corners him. Over the next rise, a gorge (distance across is a very difficult DC to jump on horseback) drops some 150 feet to rocky, river rapids...depth unknown. He knows there is a landbridge that goes across this gorge...but where is it? Skill Challenge 2 - Find the Entrance of the Gobbledeegook Monastery Through the Recovery of the Lore Captured Within the Lost Scrolls of Bob the Monk Conflict Resolution - Does the character locate the Lost Scrolls of Bob the Monk, and if he does, does he learn the location of the entrance of Gobbledeegook Monastery? Chronology: End Narrative Context: The character has followed rumors in successive villages that led him to a high mountain pass, isolated from the world. He braved the extreme environmental conditions. He climbed the mountain. He followed the dung tracks of a courtier on muleback and then stealthily followed the courtier to the entrance of the monastery. He cannot enter through the front door so he scouts out an alternate entrance. He climbs the walls and deftly navigates a thin, icy wall that he uses as in impromptu breezeway from one tower to the next. He unlocks an out of the way entrance to a far tower door. At the bottom of the tower he finds a sub-basement entrance. Inside, the walls are scrawled with odd markings. Try as he might, he is unable to ascertain enough of the pictographs on the walls to navigate. He finds a monk and stealthily follows him until he finds himself in the catacombs of an ancient library. Therein, he locates the ancient scrolls with Bob the Monks sigil. He lays them out on a table and attempts to decipher the arcane writing and skim through it for the relevant information. He's discovered and in the ensuing melee a monk torches the ancient scrolls! The lore, if it was there, is lost! How will he find the entrance of Gobbledeegook Monastery? Mechanical Context: The character has Climb/Athletics, Endurance, Insight (Decipher Script/Appraise, Sense Motive), Nature, Stealth, Streetwise/Gather Information, Perception, Knowledge History Skill being used: Insight (if he is deciphering) or Knowledge History (if he is skimming for relevant information within the text as a landmark toward what he is looking for within the text) - Failure. Check Result and Resultant Fiction: The character fails the Insight/Decipher Script check or Knowledge History check (contingent upon the chosen skill/how the preceding fiction of the book was conveyed). He was at the edge of his destiny. Ultimate success was at hand. Or was the relevant information actually within the text? We may never know. Instead of his goal being attained, he is battling for his life in the library catacombs within the belly of an ancient, remotely located edifice. Perhaps the library catches on fire and it spreads in the chaos of the melee? Perhaps the entirety of the monastery comes crumbling down and he must escape? Whatever the immediate result, he will need to find an alternate source of ancient lore if he is to locate and enter Gobbledeegook Monastery. Conclusion: If the above characters' understanding of the world, and the meta-mechanics governing it, is divorced from their respective players' understanding (** and 5 is assumed to be true** ) then how is it that (i) the character will be inclined to ruminate with incredulity over the subtleties of cause/effect in this singular moment, (ii) the player loses agency, (iii) the player's immersion has become diluted? If all of the above (and 5) is true, why would the first character think that his failure to maintain focus on spurring on his horse while navigating treacherous terrain, with deadly pursuit at his heels, with ultimate stakes (his life and the villages) led to a gorge manifesting over the next ridge? If all of the above (and 5) is true, why would the second character think that his failure to decipher the script or locate the lore via skimming by way of historical navigation (the final failure of the skill challenge which leads to the consequences of failure of the outlined Conflict Resolution) has caused either the lore to not be within the text, to disappear from the text, or for him to be caught in the act and the text to be burned in the ensuing melee? [/QUOTE]
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