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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5986398" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Hussar, that's a lovely example and I'm sorry I can't XP you for it.</p><p></p><p>True.</p><p></p><p>Also, there is no special correlation between actor stance and first person. "Actor stance" means making all decisions for the PC from the PC's own perspective. This is perfectly compatible with third person narration of the PC.</p><p></p><p>And vice versa. A player might make decisions in author stance (ie from some metagame perspective) but then narrate it in the first person. Hussar's example of the chandelier is a great one for this: the player decides it would be cool to have his/her PC swing on the chandelier - an author stance decision - and then narrates in first person "I leap off the balcony and grab hold of the chandelier!"</p><p></p><p>I doubt that the shifting you describe is that uncommon either. I see it all the time at my table: author stance in 1st person, author stance in 3rd person, actor stance in 3rd person, actor stance in 1st person. It's not as if Hussar's example - which is just the sort of thing that triggers these sorts of shifts - comes from way out of left field. It's just that many players (including, in my view, a number of "immersionists") don't really analyse their play particularly thoroughly.</p><p></p><p>There is a perfectly good, non-pejorative name for such mechanics: fortune-in-the-middle. Part of what irritates me about the Alexander blog is that instead of building on the very interesting work done at the Forge (and elsewhere?) on how such mechanics work, he coins his own pejorative phrase for them and then uses that as a premise in his characterisation of 4e as a tactical board game punctuated by freeform improv.</p><p></p><p>And yes, 4e is chock full of FitM mechanics. D&D has always had its fair share though, with hp being Exhibit A. (You can't narrate the meaning of a damage roll until you know how many total hit points the target of the hit has, and how many actual hit point s/he will have left after the damage is inflicted.)</p><p></p><p>Yes. I've mentioned something about this in a reply to you in the other thread (the balance one, I think).</p><p></p><p>This sort of thing is handled through negotiation and give and take at the table - as one aspect of the general implementation of "yes, but . . .".</p><p></p><p> All you say here may be true. It doesn't go one step, however, towards showing that 4e is a tactical skirmish game punctuated by freeform improv, which is the main contention of the Justin Alexander blog.</p><p></p><p>Hence the reason why that blog remains rather contentious.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5986398, member: 42582"] Hussar, that's a lovely example and I'm sorry I can't XP you for it. True. Also, there is no special correlation between actor stance and first person. "Actor stance" means making all decisions for the PC from the PC's own perspective. This is perfectly compatible with third person narration of the PC. And vice versa. A player might make decisions in author stance (ie from some metagame perspective) but then narrate it in the first person. Hussar's example of the chandelier is a great one for this: the player decides it would be cool to have his/her PC swing on the chandelier - an author stance decision - and then narrates in first person "I leap off the balcony and grab hold of the chandelier!" I doubt that the shifting you describe is that uncommon either. I see it all the time at my table: author stance in 1st person, author stance in 3rd person, actor stance in 3rd person, actor stance in 1st person. It's not as if Hussar's example - which is just the sort of thing that triggers these sorts of shifts - comes from way out of left field. It's just that many players (including, in my view, a number of "immersionists") don't really analyse their play particularly thoroughly. There is a perfectly good, non-pejorative name for such mechanics: fortune-in-the-middle. Part of what irritates me about the Alexander blog is that instead of building on the very interesting work done at the Forge (and elsewhere?) on how such mechanics work, he coins his own pejorative phrase for them and then uses that as a premise in his characterisation of 4e as a tactical board game punctuated by freeform improv. And yes, 4e is chock full of FitM mechanics. D&D has always had its fair share though, with hp being Exhibit A. (You can't narrate the meaning of a damage roll until you know how many total hit points the target of the hit has, and how many actual hit point s/he will have left after the damage is inflicted.) Yes. I've mentioned something about this in a reply to you in the other thread (the balance one, I think). This sort of thing is handled through negotiation and give and take at the table - as one aspect of the general implementation of "yes, but . . .". All you say here may be true. It doesn't go one step, however, towards showing that 4e is a tactical skirmish game punctuated by freeform improv, which is the main contention of the Justin Alexander blog. Hence the reason why that blog remains rather contentious. [/QUOTE]
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