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<blockquote data-quote="Emerikol" data-source="post: 5992594" data-attributes="member: 6698278">False.&nbsp; They are written very process sim.&nbsp; And here is where so many who don't understand dissociative mechanics go wrong.&nbsp;&nbsp; The level of abstraction has nothing to do with it.&nbsp; So keep studying.&nbsp; When you understand the difference between abstraction and dissociation we can continue our talk.&nbsp; If you can't then we can't progress further.&nbsp; Those of us with dissociative mechanic issues know the difference all too well.If you read the fireball spell it is very explicit.&nbsp; What the caster is thinking and the player is identical.&nbsp;&nbsp; I based my opinion on the result not on his stated intentions.&nbsp; In fact if you parse your quotes right you can construct about any opinion you want from Gygax.&nbsp;&nbsp; The wrote a process-sim game with abstractions.&nbsp;&nbsp; No contradiction there.Your style of roleplaying would lead me to just give up roleplaying.&nbsp; My group dropped 4e like a rotten stink bomb after playing it for a while.&nbsp; We gave it a good chance but we couldn't stop laughing at it.&nbsp; Hard to get immersed that way.One of my favorite houserules was a scatter die location on a successful save.&nbsp; I never said that every single earlier edition had no dissociative issues.&nbsp; I just said those games were playable or houserulable to usability.&nbsp; Wherease 4e is not.Yeah I do.&nbsp; I wouldn't mind if it was an at-will power called a taunt.&nbsp; But having it limited to once per day is ridiculous.&nbsp; Either you can do it or you can't.&nbsp;&nbsp; That doesn't even require any exertion so the fatigue argument fails.And yet all of us process sim people dropped 4e and started playing 3.5e and/or Pathfinder.&nbsp; So I guess it does make a difference.&nbsp; If 5e ignores the process sim aspects of the game it will meet with the same success as 4e which is not much.&nbsp; And I'll probably just look to Pathfinder as the new owners of traditional D&amp;D.&nbsp;&nbsp; But if aliens arrive and burn all the 1e,2e,3e,3.5e and Pathfinder books and destroy Paizo, and mandate that the only fantasy rpg allowed is 4e then I'll just quit D&amp;D altogether.&nbsp;&nbsp; Of course this silly example is just that.&nbsp; If D&amp;D doesn't meet the demand for process-sim then someone will.&nbsp;&nbsp; And that company will likely surpass D&amp;D.&nbsp; It's happened once already.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Emerikol, post: 5992594, member: 6698278"] False. They are written very process sim. And here is where so many who don't understand dissociative mechanics go wrong. The level of abstraction has nothing to do with it. So keep studying. When you understand the difference between abstraction and dissociation we can continue our talk. If you can't then we can't progress further. Those of us with dissociative mechanic issues know the difference all too well. If you read the fireball spell it is very explicit. What the caster is thinking and the player is identical. I based my opinion on the result not on his stated intentions. In fact if you parse your quotes right you can construct about any opinion you want from Gygax. The wrote a process-sim game with abstractions. No contradiction there. Your style of roleplaying would lead me to just give up roleplaying. My group dropped 4e like a rotten stink bomb after playing it for a while. We gave it a good chance but we couldn't stop laughing at it. Hard to get immersed that way. One of my favorite houserules was a scatter die location on a successful save. I never said that every single earlier edition had no dissociative issues. I just said those games were playable or houserulable to usability. Wherease 4e is not. Yeah I do. I wouldn't mind if it was an at-will power called a taunt. But having it limited to once per day is ridiculous. Either you can do it or you can't. That doesn't even require any exertion so the fatigue argument fails. And yet all of us process sim people dropped 4e and started playing 3.5e and/or Pathfinder. So I guess it does make a difference. If 5e ignores the process sim aspects of the game it will meet with the same success as 4e which is not much. And I'll probably just look to Pathfinder as the new owners of traditional D&D. But if aliens arrive and burn all the 1e,2e,3e,3.5e and Pathfinder books and destroy Paizo, and mandate that the only fantasy rpg allowed is 4e then I'll just quit D&D altogether. Of course this silly example is just that. If D&D doesn't meet the demand for process-sim then someone will. And that company will likely surpass D&D. It's happened once already. [/QUOTE]

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