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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5994227" data-attributes="member: 87792">On re-reading your posts, you are right.  My apologies.The games that WotC dream to returning to sales wise with D&D aren't 3.0.  They are 1e and the Red Box.  Both written for pawn stance - and pretty much the opposite of what you are saying they should do.  But in all three cases D&D caught the zeitgeist - I believe that the OGL was an extremely good thing for the sales of D&D because it provided a mountain of free advertising and word of mouth among the geek crowd.You say that as if it is true.  It isn't.  You can only play 4e one way.  I find the 4e powers structure far more immersionist than spam-play.  I'll go into why below.No.  You keep repeating.  We keep rebutting - <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/5989187-post513.html" target="_blank">as here</a> - and you keep ignoring that you do not have a single unrefuted point on the table or that when your points are countered, you should defend them.And this is why, to me, your supposed immersion fails.  You are not thinking the way either I do or anyone else I have spoken to does except at the most superficial level possible - at this level of zoom, the wizard would be saying "I cast an evocation to kill him".When I have a sword in my hand and am in the middle of combat I'm not thinking about what I want to do.  I'm thinking about how.  The what is really incredibly obvious.  I'm thinking about where everyone is, and how I can exploit that.  I'm looking for openings which may or may not be there.  Which is precisely the way it works in 4e - and not at all the way it works in AD&D.  With a sword in my hand I'm looking for opportunities, I'm seeing them, I'm exploiting them, and I don't have time to worry about what isn't there.  With AEDU I'm looking forn opportunities, I'm seeing them, I'm exploiting them.  With action-spam I'm not looking for opportunities, I'm choosing between options that are always there.  I therefore find this disassociative because it means that limited and fleeting opportunities don't exist.And as for powers being limited use and this not being a problem in character, even in chess one of the differences between Grand Masters and beginners is that <a href="http://everything2.com/title/Do+chessmasters+think+more+moves+ahead%253F" target="_blank">good players literally do not see the bad moves on the board</a>.  They subconsciously notice and discard them.  Warriors, likewise.  They practice <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunking_%28psychology%29" target="_blank">chunking</a> and especially <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunking_%28psychology%29#Chunking_in_motor_learning" target="_blank">chunking in motor learning</a> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_learning" target="_blank">see also</a>).  4e martial powers are excellently chunked and without limited use powers I'm not looking for fleeting and semi-fleeting opportunities.Limited use player controlled tactical powers: An aid to tactical play, an aid to narrative play, and an aid to immersion.  (This, incidently, is where 13th Age goes wrong - the riders are chosen after the dice is rolled).This, of course, doesn't mean that AEDU is the only way.  Merely that limited availability powers are essential for fighters to be immersive and associated at a tactical level.  (Note: Limited availability isn't the same as limited use.  You could, for instance, borrow the Crusader mechanic where only some of the standard chunks/katas/combinations/powers your character uses are available at any time but which ones are refreshes every few rounds - and fall back on the basic attack if nothing presents itself).So yeah, I get what you mean by dissassociation.  And that only some editions of D&D allow you to match what's going on in a warrior's head in combat.  Those the two I know about are 3.5: Book of Nine Swords, and 4e.And completely not the way I do it.  I see what I can do.  I respond.  I do it.  That is wholly and completely the way I think both playing 4e and when I have a sword in my hand.  That you find it dissassociative is, to me, merely an indication that you are not as immersed as you think.Why?  In character I don't know those limitations.  I only see the options that are there.  The ones laid out by the power cards.Actually succeeding at immersion and chunking what you can do works.  Which means that every class in 4e is associated if you avoid one or two powers (Come And Get It springs to mind).I believe that's a contradiction to what you said earlier where you mentioned your spell levels have names.  Characters think about spell levels.  Therefore they think about levels.Try some of them.  They do what you claim to do from D&D a lot better.</blockquote>

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