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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5996398" data-attributes="member: 54877">Certainly. Well, ok--mostly. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> That is, if the designer binds the mechanics to the fiction, this is about as "early association" as you can get. I guess the only way that would be sooner is if there was some kind of master plan imposed by someone else that the designer was supposed to adhere to. (As far as I know, that's never happened with a game.) It's about as far as one can get from extreme "late association", where someone binds at the time of the action, superseded only by rationalizations after the fact. Even in extreme early association, however, someone at the table is responsible for making sure that the fiction is consistent with the particular techniques that the chosen system supports. And the player is responsible for accepting the conventions of these techniques, such as getting into a frame of mind where, say, "hit points getting whittled away" fits the combat as visualized.  There's no doubt that these extremes are different, and come with different demands. Going for pure designer association is akin to "I'm not going to associate myself or even allow the DM to do so. The author of the game must make all the associations." Where a game that was pure late association would be, "The designer can't make any associations, except perhaps as examples. All associations will be made at the time by the players, including the DM where warranted."  Nothing wrong with any of that. If someone wants to say that they'll deal with mechanics where the associations are made for them, by someone else, I suppose they can try. I don't actually believe that's possible, because I think any playable game will always require some associations by the players, if only to put their particular, acceptable slant on existing mechanics (e.g. hit points). Humans classify and make associations by reflex. It's part of what defines us. But there is no way to prove my belief. I do believe that it is possible for a designer to make enough associations, and make them slick enough, that some players might feel that it had all been done for them--which is close enough for practible purposes.  Also certainly, the earlier the association, the easier the association, and the more "natural feeling" the association, then the easier it will be to immerse. RAW 4E's on the other end of all three of those criteria, which is why immersion in 4E is an acquired taste--you've got to reach the point where late association is easy and feels natural before you can immerse.</blockquote>

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