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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 5998712" data-attributes="member: 6688937">The response below reflects my experiences playing 3e, and my impressions from reading various forums and newsgroups along the way. It is, of course, limited in that way. Also, sorry this is so long.When 3e first came out..."no" and "yes", in that order. 3e emerged in a world where what we now call character optimization was derided (common, but derided) with pejoratives like "munchkin" and "minmaxer". As with any edition of D&D, they weren't totally absent, but they were certainly not the main thrust of people's concerns. Much like generals prepare to fight the last war, game designers prepare to fix the sins of the previous edition of D&D. Also, yes, 3e seemed to discount "event" based esteem over "status"-based esteem. "I am now X" was usually more important than "I did X."Many of the little changes from 2e/3e were to eliminate some of Gygax's Gamist kludges that people found objectionable. Things like Demihuman level limits and ability score requirements for classes and multiclassing. Remember that with the exception of the 1e Bard, prestige classes were a totally new idea. The focus was on the development of a character expression. They added a zillion fiddly bits like feats, skill points, and the prestige class system. The functional purpose of all those fiddly bits was (I feel) the Simulationist desire to "live the dream" and its need to defend against creeping Gamism (see below).I don't think/know they necessarily intended to bank Simulationist while doing all that. I think it was more that removing G while holding N constant created heavier S. Since the primary G aspects of OD&D were out of vogue, you're left with emphasizing the S. (2e had demonstrated successfully that D&D is not really suited to Narrativist play without massive structural change.) I also think people have a tendency to "think" S when first designing new rules (some call this "simulationist by habit"). One odd (and often self-defeating) result of this focus was often an inability in 3e to play the character you envisioned right from the start. Even the prestige system reflects the idea that getting to play your concept was a goal of the game. You want your character to be X?...wait 6 levels and you can be close. You had to "earn" the right to be what you wanted (yet another hidden aspect of the design process that subtly favored the caster over the martial character.)Of course, this created its own constellation of problems. Especially since the culture of D&D players changed profoundly during 3e's reign*, its weaknesses were exacerbated over time. (Whether this happens to all editions or not...I'm not sure.) Of course, this isn't true for everyone. I know from personal experience that there are people still playing 3e like its 2000, running high-concept fantasy. (And they are all like the groups described in the quote below. GM-centric, and generally isolated from the rest of the D&D community.) For the people and groups that came to hate 3e towards the end, their problems IMO precisely describe the dysfunction of a Sim game split by its own, Gamist hybridization described <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/" target="_blank">here</a>:Anyway, that's how I see it. 4e is perhaps the first edition of D&D that isn't profoundly GNS-dysfunctional, but it draws fire for being "not D&D." All versions of D&D are strongly G/s or S/g, with 2e arguably being the most dysfunctional with its strong narrative desires but no mechanical narrative support. (What does it say about me that 2e is my favorite ed?<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/paranoid.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":uhoh:" title="Paranoid    :uhoh:" data-shortname=":uhoh:" />) It remains to be seen whether 5e can somehow steady the whipsawing between G and S, and successfully hybridize the two in a game that still hits "D&D" for most people. *For a wide variety of reasons, including: changes in the way "gamers" were viewed by the general public, the increased acceptability of fantasy in contemporary art, the popularity of computer-based fantasy games, etc.</blockquote>

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