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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="LostSoul" data-source="post: 6002367" data-attributes="member: 386"><p>I think there is a difference between Combat Superiority and an Encounter or Daily Power.</p><p></p><p>CS may create nonsensical results in the fiction - "I parry the fireball/psychic attack with my bow" - but nonsensical results don't mean that the mechanic is dissociated. They're simply nonsensical. Your PC can parry fireballs with his bow, somehow, and you must imagine him doing that.</p><p></p><p>I think that's the key - the mechanics tell you what to imagine. They don't <em>require</em> the player to create or imagine anything in order to connect the mechanics to the game world. <em>They already represent something within the game world.</em> It's not the pull effect of Come and Get It that's dissociated, it's that Come and Get It doesn't tell you what's actually going on in the game world when you use it. (CaGI's pull, in its more absurd uses, makes as much sense as parrying a fireball or falling off a thousand-foot cliff, landing on your feet, and then running a marathon.)</p><p></p><p>When you're playing 4E, you have to - round-by-round, and sometimes turn-by-turn - make decisions as a player that <em>require you</em> to imagine or create what your PC is doing. The mechanics don't <em>tell you</em> what your PC is doing. You have to provide that context yourself. Which means that, when you're making choices, you can't think in game-world terms. "I swing my sword at the orc" is linked to a specific mechanic in pre-4E D&D, but it isn't in 4E, because that could be any one of a hundred powers in action.</p><p></p><p>So.</p><p></p><p>I make a melee attack: Associated, it tells you what to imagine.</p><p>I swing at the orc with my sword: Because the mechanics are associated with the game world, we know which mechanic to use to resolve this.</p><p></p><p>I use Come and Get It: Dissociated, it doesn't tell you what to imagine.</p><p>I pull the orcs in with my halberd and follow up with a quick jab from the butt: Because we can't tell if you're using Come and Get It or something else, we don't know which mechanic to use to resolve this.</p><p></p><p>Some questions & thoughts: Do Feats in 3E cause dissociation problems? I imagine that some do. </p><p></p><p>D&D combat is so abstract that the player can't make choices that the character should be able to. "I stab the orc in the gut" and "I stab the orc in the face" and "I run the orc through with my sword" and "I attack the orc" are all exactly the same, mechanically, from the point of view of the player. I don't think this means that those mechanics are dissociated, though, just abstract: the mechanics will tell you what to imagine - you must imagine their connection to the game world - once you use them.</p><p></p><p>(I say "must imagine" because, if you don't need to imagine what the mechanics say are happening in the game world, then those mechanics don't have a connection to the game world. (Well, in as much that you need to imagine anything, I guess.) That connection to the game world is already set, so you can't imagine something else. Shooting a guy with your bow and missing can't mean that you didn't actually fire your bow - the mechanics don't connect to the game world that way.)</p><p></p><p>My 4E hack works like this: </p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Describe the in-game action for your PC. Determine modifiers based on that action. Determine the DC based on that action. Roll with modifiers against the DC. Determine outcome based on roll & the action.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure if those mechanics are connected to the game world or not. I <em>think</em> they are, but I think they cause problems for people who don't like dissociated mechanics because the player is forced to imagine what his character is doing <em>before</em> engaging the mechanics.</p><p></p><p>That is, you can't say "I attack the orc", engage the mechanics, and have the DM describe what happened in the game world. "I attack the orc" doesn't provide enough information to move on with resolution. You're forced to be a more active participant in creating the fiction.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="LostSoul, post: 6002367, member: 386"] I think there is a difference between Combat Superiority and an Encounter or Daily Power. CS may create nonsensical results in the fiction - "I parry the fireball/psychic attack with my bow" - but nonsensical results don't mean that the mechanic is dissociated. They're simply nonsensical. Your PC can parry fireballs with his bow, somehow, and you must imagine him doing that. I think that's the key - the mechanics tell you what to imagine. They don't [i]require[/i] the player to create or imagine anything in order to connect the mechanics to the game world. [i]They already represent something within the game world.[/i] It's not the pull effect of Come and Get It that's dissociated, it's that Come and Get It doesn't tell you what's actually going on in the game world when you use it. (CaGI's pull, in its more absurd uses, makes as much sense as parrying a fireball or falling off a thousand-foot cliff, landing on your feet, and then running a marathon.) When you're playing 4E, you have to - round-by-round, and sometimes turn-by-turn - make decisions as a player that [i]require you[/i] to imagine or create what your PC is doing. The mechanics don't [i]tell you[/i] what your PC is doing. You have to provide that context yourself. Which means that, when you're making choices, you can't think in game-world terms. "I swing my sword at the orc" is linked to a specific mechanic in pre-4E D&D, but it isn't in 4E, because that could be any one of a hundred powers in action. So. I make a melee attack: Associated, it tells you what to imagine. I swing at the orc with my sword: Because the mechanics are associated with the game world, we know which mechanic to use to resolve this. I use Come and Get It: Dissociated, it doesn't tell you what to imagine. I pull the orcs in with my halberd and follow up with a quick jab from the butt: Because we can't tell if you're using Come and Get It or something else, we don't know which mechanic to use to resolve this. Some questions & thoughts: Do Feats in 3E cause dissociation problems? I imagine that some do. D&D combat is so abstract that the player can't make choices that the character should be able to. "I stab the orc in the gut" and "I stab the orc in the face" and "I run the orc through with my sword" and "I attack the orc" are all exactly the same, mechanically, from the point of view of the player. I don't think this means that those mechanics are dissociated, though, just abstract: the mechanics will tell you what to imagine - you must imagine their connection to the game world - once you use them. (I say "must imagine" because, if you don't need to imagine what the mechanics say are happening in the game world, then those mechanics don't have a connection to the game world. (Well, in as much that you need to imagine anything, I guess.) That connection to the game world is already set, so you can't imagine something else. Shooting a guy with your bow and missing can't mean that you didn't actually fire your bow - the mechanics don't connect to the game world that way.) My 4E hack works like this: [indent]Describe the in-game action for your PC. Determine modifiers based on that action. Determine the DC based on that action. Roll with modifiers against the DC. Determine outcome based on roll & the action.[/indent] I'm not sure if those mechanics are connected to the game world or not. I [i]think[/i] they are, but I think they cause problems for people who don't like dissociated mechanics because the player is forced to imagine what his character is doing [i]before[/i] engaging the mechanics. That is, you can't say "I attack the orc", engage the mechanics, and have the DM describe what happened in the game world. "I attack the orc" doesn't provide enough information to move on with resolution. You're forced to be a more active participant in creating the fiction. [/QUOTE]
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