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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6017571" data-attributes="member: 22779">Actually, Ahn, I do largely agree with you that 3e isn't horribly broken.  I'm not going to say that it is.  3e works very well, particularly within the "sweet spot" range of levels from about 3rd to 10th.  However, that being said, it's also very, very easy for casters to get out of hand and change the nature of the game in ways that non-casters simply cannot.  Think of it this way.  If you had a completely non-magical group - all non-casters - how different would you have to make an 18th level adventure from a 5th level one to still challenge those characters?  Any terrain challenges still apply - it's not like fighters gain fly or teleport.  Long distance travel is still an option.  Mystery based adventures are virtually unchanged.Now, use a standard party - cleric, wizard, fighter, thief.  The two adventures have to be entirely different.  Terrain issues are ignored because either of the casters can just fly/teleport/whatever the entire party past.  Mysteries become a joke as the casters can throw spells at the mystery until they resolve it.  Long distance travel/exploration is not even possible anymore.That's the problem in a nutshell.  Everything else is just an adjunct to the casting system.  The casters fundamentally change the nature of the game simply by existing.I remember having a really eye opening experience in 4e.  We were in a scenario where our 8th (ish) level characters had to track down a traitor amongst the citizens of a small castle we were protecting from an invading force.  My first reaction once we identified the problem was to turn to the casters and get them to solve the problem.  Because, honestly, in 3e, that's what you'd do.  Zone of Truth, Detect Evil, Know Alignment, etc.  We always would have a few scrolls of those floating around for just these occasions.  But, this was 4e.  We had to engage in the game world to find the traitor because there were no end run spells.  They just don't exist for 4e characters.It was a real eye opener and probably the point where I really decided that I liked 4e more than 3e.  I still wish 4e combat was a smidgeon shorter and less involved, and there are other areas I'd like to see improvement on 4e.  But, reining in casters and making them on par with non-casters was the best thing they did to the game.</blockquote>

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