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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ahnehnois" data-source="post: 6017621" data-attributes="member: 17106">Oh, absolutely. That's what makes them fun. That's what makes you feel like you're playing a wizard, when you can bend the laws of nature to your will. I would hope that magic would fundamentally change the nature of the game by existing; as I would hope that any FRPG would be different than a historical simulation.I guess I'm just not seeing where that's a problem. If my PCs have to walk, the adventure is what happens while they're walking. If they can fly or teleport, it's what happens when they get there. If they kill an enemy with an SoD, the enemy is dead. If they solve a mystery in five minutes with a divination, that's fine. Just move on to the next thing.I can see where this would be problematic for people who run published adventures or plan heavily. To me, this was simply incentive to learn how to improvise. The adventure isn't whatever I plan; it's whatever happens at the table. It's not like I'll ever run out of ideas on how to challenge the players. If your point is that spellcasters destroy plans, that much is true.Is an 18th level party of 3 fighters and a barbarian the same as a party of fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard? Certainly not. And the latter is more powerful, and probably should be, because it's a balanced team. The same way a character can be well or poorly designed, so can a party.If you're trying to use the CR system, and you find that party 1 can't handle their CR, while party 2 handles higher-level creatures easily, that's evidence that the CR system is broken (which it or any other similar system definitely is), not because of some fixable design flaw but because the entire notion of standardized challenges is foolish. RPGs are open-ended.In practice, most of the world-breaking things those casters can do are countered. Cheesy spell combos can usually be countered by enemy casters, who in world have every reason to do so. I think most DMs assume that the King's chambers aren't accessible by teleportation for one reason or another. Incredible feats attract attention. If you start abusing reality, some dragon/deity/etc. is going to take notice, regardless of what class you are. Rule <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1" target="_blank">#1</a>  of D&D: There's always someone more powerful than you.Whee things would become a problem is largely if the fighter types feel useless, but IME this doesn't happen. Sure they can't duplicate that whole teleport thing or raise their fallen comrades or control minds (some exceptions to that last one), but that's not why they played a fighter. The casters' best spells usually benefit the whole group, and I don't see a lot of fighter players complaining that the wizard saved them some leg work or that the cleric healed him. If anything, casting utility spells is sort of a chore. And magic items can patch a lot of things. So the question is, when the fighter player gets his chance to attack a monster, does he get totally overshadowed by some cheesed out summoned beast or preempted by some magical attack, and IMC he doesn't. I figure if a monster is high level, it's probably pretty smart and pretty well-equipped. It probably has counters for all kinds of magical things. It probably thinks it can just take the fighter on in melee though, and the fighter's job is to prove it wrong, and (possibly with some buffs and definitely with a fantastic magic sword), the fighter derives pleasure from doing that.One of my players still uses the name of an early fighter character as his message board name, a character that he played from lower mid levels up to high epic, alongside a druid, a sorcerer, and a psion (among others). Before I started houseruling, and before I was very experienced as a DM. And that character worked, even in the midst of a druid with a crazy overpowered 3.0 pet, a borderline abusive seer, and a sorcerer who ascended to deityhood and continued to participate in the game. Eventually, that fighter killed an unbelievably powerful epic dragon and ascended to minor deity status himself.Somehow, it just works.***I think that's a point where a lot of people will agree; that the game plays best in those low middle levels. There might be disagreement as to when it drops off and how badly, but I think it's pretty well recognized that characters actually being able to cast Wish is a niche style of game. I don't see that as such a bad thing though. Every game will have a sweet spot, and that's not a small one.If I understand correctly, certain elements you found game-breaking were simply removed. Personally, I despise alignment, and am not as down on 4e's take on wizards as I am on its takes on fighters or on healing (though I dislike all of the above), but as a whole I hope you can see where removing character abilities and character types that you might find unbalanced (and which might very well be in some cases) poses problems for others. What about people who like Zone of Truth?Wouldn't it just be better to modularize things and put teleport/polymorph/[other reality bending spell of choice] with a ""high magic" tag or something for groups who do want to go there?</blockquote>

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