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With the Holy Trinity out, let's take stock of 5E
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<blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 6460305" data-attributes="member: 3192"><p>As far as the game, D&D hasn't been D&D since 2000. And back then 2e edition designers were so misguided about its design I don't know if they had any actual understanding of its underpinnings at all. I think they just went along with it as a kind of unreflected tradition. But at least the numbers put out in products were roughly equivalent enough that the new game content could rather easily be retrofit back on to earlier more functional designs.</p><p></p><p>Then The Forge had to come along and convert most of the current flock of designers into storymakers, authors, instead of game designers who have entrenched an unquestionable game philosophy that sought to make everything that led to D&D's design some kind of act of heresy. In the meantime 3e came out and was hugely successful. Also confused in design like 2nd ed. the new-made converts needed to "bring it down" to save the hobby. Eventually 4e came out billing D&D as a game about collaboratively creating stories - not mastering the design of a game. Something it had never been before. It created another rift. The older players found a new group, 3e players who kept on playing or took up the OGL clone of Pathfinder. 4e was well designed, probably a better design than for years, but it removed most of the game play and even game sense of D&D from the game. </p><p></p><p>Now we have 5e and it looks like a sincere desire to unite the fans of D&D together, while not the hobby. The mechanics and game advice are straight out of The Forge and wholly about playing stories again. The mechanics are all in front of the screen and play like 4e rules retrograded to 3e and earlier mechanics but without their sensibility of purpose. However, all these rules do bang together pretty well for what they are. They add up to a tight little game, if not that broad. I expect the breadth will come once again as they follow the Exceptions-based character powers design rather than the old world and system generation mechanics.</p><p></p><p>It is, dare I say, openly nostalgic. A pejorative word for any game's designed with clear intent to enable strategic play as well as simply any game "pre-Forge" revolution in RPGs. There are design attempts clearly here to address what some online tried to articulate about "what was lost" in 4th edition or any version not preferred. Mystery is being built in as well as many potential add-ons or module mechanics to enable groups to play as they prefer, not as the designers have inferred. Does that mean D&D can be redesigned back in? Given the relationships of the current core mechanics it's highly unlikely. (Given the state of things it's more likely actual D&D is snuck in as a Dungeon! boardgame bulk rule variant.) But 5th edition may have something new to offer D&D given the right perspective.</p><p></p><p>What is true is that as a storygame 5e is an enjoyable, D&D reminiscent game. It respects its history and holds a vastly improved attitude to its fan base. I cannot honestly say I would run any game after 2nd ed. unless the original design precepts are brought back, but I have played in 5th and enjoyed it. It plays better than 4th and 3rd and will give some challenge to Pathfinder I'm sure. It's biggest hurdle now is adventure designs, not rules module, but I suspect we will get an interesting dose of both in the none too distant future. My favorite thing? The numbers in the adventures published should be much easier to convert to older D&D. </p><p></p><p>I'll give the game 3 stars out of 5 with another 1/2 star for all its good will and a proviso that it not be confused with the older game with the same name.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="howandwhy99, post: 6460305, member: 3192"] As far as the game, D&D hasn't been D&D since 2000. And back then 2e edition designers were so misguided about its design I don't know if they had any actual understanding of its underpinnings at all. I think they just went along with it as a kind of unreflected tradition. But at least the numbers put out in products were roughly equivalent enough that the new game content could rather easily be retrofit back on to earlier more functional designs. Then The Forge had to come along and convert most of the current flock of designers into storymakers, authors, instead of game designers who have entrenched an unquestionable game philosophy that sought to make everything that led to D&D's design some kind of act of heresy. In the meantime 3e came out and was hugely successful. Also confused in design like 2nd ed. the new-made converts needed to "bring it down" to save the hobby. Eventually 4e came out billing D&D as a game about collaboratively creating stories - not mastering the design of a game. Something it had never been before. It created another rift. The older players found a new group, 3e players who kept on playing or took up the OGL clone of Pathfinder. 4e was well designed, probably a better design than for years, but it removed most of the game play and even game sense of D&D from the game. Now we have 5e and it looks like a sincere desire to unite the fans of D&D together, while not the hobby. The mechanics and game advice are straight out of The Forge and wholly about playing stories again. The mechanics are all in front of the screen and play like 4e rules retrograded to 3e and earlier mechanics but without their sensibility of purpose. However, all these rules do bang together pretty well for what they are. They add up to a tight little game, if not that broad. I expect the breadth will come once again as they follow the Exceptions-based character powers design rather than the old world and system generation mechanics. It is, dare I say, openly nostalgic. A pejorative word for any game's designed with clear intent to enable strategic play as well as simply any game "pre-Forge" revolution in RPGs. There are design attempts clearly here to address what some online tried to articulate about "what was lost" in 4th edition or any version not preferred. Mystery is being built in as well as many potential add-ons or module mechanics to enable groups to play as they prefer, not as the designers have inferred. Does that mean D&D can be redesigned back in? Given the relationships of the current core mechanics it's highly unlikely. (Given the state of things it's more likely actual D&D is snuck in as a Dungeon! boardgame bulk rule variant.) But 5th edition may have something new to offer D&D given the right perspective. What is true is that as a storygame 5e is an enjoyable, D&D reminiscent game. It respects its history and holds a vastly improved attitude to its fan base. I cannot honestly say I would run any game after 2nd ed. unless the original design precepts are brought back, but I have played in 5th and enjoyed it. It plays better than 4th and 3rd and will give some challenge to Pathfinder I'm sure. It's biggest hurdle now is adventure designs, not rules module, but I suspect we will get an interesting dose of both in the none too distant future. My favorite thing? The numbers in the adventures published should be much easier to convert to older D&D. I'll give the game 3 stars out of 5 with another 1/2 star for all its good will and a proviso that it not be confused with the older game with the same name. [/QUOTE]
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