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With the Holy Trinity out, let's take stock of 5E
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<blockquote data-quote="fuindordm" data-source="post: 6462321" data-attributes="member: 5435"><p>Yeah, I can see that. I started playing AD&D when I was about 12, and I don't think that I or any of my friends understood the "challenge game" aspect of the system at the time. Our knowledge of the game grew together and the character deaths were part of our apprenticeship, but certainly not the high point of our experience. By the time AD&D was released the designers had been through years of gaming with their homebrew systems, where the DM tries to surprise the players with new threats and the PCs respond with new tactics. I think this is where the endless stream of "trap monsters" in the MM comes from: rot grubs, mimics, trappers, ear seekers, etc. But all of these are one-shot wonders, serving only to give the players a "gotcha" moment followed by an adjustment of tactics. </p><p></p><p>But I also don't think EGG expected everyone to play that way all the time; by the time AD&D was released many of these original gamers were playing detailed, story-based campaigns with high-level characters. So while I agree that the antagonistic challenge game is an important feature of AD&D, I don't personally see it as a crucial feature of early D&D. And I don't see the lack of explicit support for this kind of play in 5E as a flaw of the game.</p><p></p><p>A challenge game is a contract between the DM and the players. The players have to agree that they'll enjoy running adventures where their PCs can easily die through bad luck and carelessness, and the DM has to agree to put effort into mystifying the underlying monsters, magic, and even the rules to some extent. </p><p></p><p>Now, with 30 years of experience under my belt, I know I can run any kind of game I want to with 5E. If my players want a challenge game in the AD&D style, I will make an adventure where mundane supplies such as torches and food are vital to success, and I will slow down natural healing so that recovering fully in the dungeon is very difficult. But most importantly, I will re-skin the monsters and magic so that the party is never sure what they're facing and reading the core books doesn't help them that much. It's not even very difficult to do--stick a troll in a werewolf's skin, and give it the winter wolf's breath weapon, and you've got an original monster and the party has to figure out the best tactics to use by trial and error. If the sorcerer who created the monster conjures a 5-wide screaming skull wreathed in toxic fumes, it will take them some time to figure out that it has essentially the same effect as the Flaming Sphere spell.</p><p></p><p>For me at least, this kind of game sits very comfortably in the 5E framework.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="fuindordm, post: 6462321, member: 5435"] Yeah, I can see that. I started playing AD&D when I was about 12, and I don't think that I or any of my friends understood the "challenge game" aspect of the system at the time. Our knowledge of the game grew together and the character deaths were part of our apprenticeship, but certainly not the high point of our experience. By the time AD&D was released the designers had been through years of gaming with their homebrew systems, where the DM tries to surprise the players with new threats and the PCs respond with new tactics. I think this is where the endless stream of "trap monsters" in the MM comes from: rot grubs, mimics, trappers, ear seekers, etc. But all of these are one-shot wonders, serving only to give the players a "gotcha" moment followed by an adjustment of tactics. But I also don't think EGG expected everyone to play that way all the time; by the time AD&D was released many of these original gamers were playing detailed, story-based campaigns with high-level characters. So while I agree that the antagonistic challenge game is an important feature of AD&D, I don't personally see it as a crucial feature of early D&D. And I don't see the lack of explicit support for this kind of play in 5E as a flaw of the game. A challenge game is a contract between the DM and the players. The players have to agree that they'll enjoy running adventures where their PCs can easily die through bad luck and carelessness, and the DM has to agree to put effort into mystifying the underlying monsters, magic, and even the rules to some extent. Now, with 30 years of experience under my belt, I know I can run any kind of game I want to with 5E. If my players want a challenge game in the AD&D style, I will make an adventure where mundane supplies such as torches and food are vital to success, and I will slow down natural healing so that recovering fully in the dungeon is very difficult. But most importantly, I will re-skin the monsters and magic so that the party is never sure what they're facing and reading the core books doesn't help them that much. It's not even very difficult to do--stick a troll in a werewolf's skin, and give it the winter wolf's breath weapon, and you've got an original monster and the party has to figure out the best tactics to use by trial and error. If the sorcerer who created the monster conjures a 5-wide screaming skull wreathed in toxic fumes, it will take them some time to figure out that it has essentially the same effect as the Flaming Sphere spell. For me at least, this kind of game sits very comfortably in the 5E framework. [/QUOTE]
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With the Holy Trinity out, let's take stock of 5E
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