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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6466478" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Yet this objective is not stated anywhere. The AD&D PHB says this about the objective of D&D (pp 7, 8, 18):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Into this world of weird monsters, strange peoples, multitudinous states, and fabulous treasures . . . stride fearless adventurers - you and your fellow players. Inexperienced and of but small power at first, by dint of hard fighting and clever deeds, these adventurers advance in ability to become forces to be reckoned with . . . By means of group co-operation and individual achievement, and adventurer can become ever more powerful. . . . There is no "winner", no fnal objective, and the campaign grows and changes as it matures. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">[O]ne player must serve as the <em>Dungeon Master</em>, the shaper of the fantasy milieu . . . The other participants become <em>adventurers </em>by creating characters to expore the fantastic world and face all of its challenges - monsters, magic and unnamed menaces. . . . [E]ach character begins at the bottom of his or her chosen class . . . By successfully meeting the challenges posed, they gain <em>experience</em> and move upwards in power, just as actual paying experience really increases paying skill. Imagination, intelligence, problem solving ability, and memory are all continually exercised by participants in the game. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">As players build the experience level of their characters and go forth seeking ever greater challenges, they must face stronger monsters and more difficult problems of other sorts . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Skilled players always make a point of knowing what they are doing, i.e. they have an objective. They co-operate . . . in order to gain their ends. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The approach you wish to take to the game, how you believe you can most successfully meet the challenges which it poses, and which role you desire to play are dictated by character class</p><p></p><p>The objective that this present is one of increasing your character's power by successfully and skilfully meeting the challenges posed by the game (through the medium of the Dungeon Master). Class dictates the role adopted to meet those challenges, but there is no suggestion that class either (i) changes the nature of the challenges, nor (ii) determines what counts as successfully meeting them. And the DMG experience rules are class-neutral (ie all classes equally gain experience for defeating monsters and for finding treasure).</p><p></p><p>I think that Gygax and Moldvay are better authorities than you as to what RPGing <em>really</em> is about, or how classic D&D is <em>meant</em> to be played. Neither you nor anyone else is under any obligation to follow their advice, but you can't just ignore what they wrote while setting yourself up as some authority on the true nature of the game.</p><p></p><p>With respect, this is all just verbiage. I'm not sure that "conformed to the players' description based on what the game can do in its preset design" is even a meaningful phrase of English. I certainly don't know what it means. (For a start, the game can't <em>do</em> anything - it is neither an agent nor a machine.)</p><p></p><p>I presented a concrete ingame situation: a player wants his/her PC to smash a winch mechanism using a hammer and piton, so that a portcullis will drop rapidly to block some onrushing orcs. [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] also presented a concrete situation - a player wants his/her PC to jump over a pit. You have not explained how either situation is to be adjudicated, nor pointed to any rule in any AD&D rulebook that would answer the question. (The Wilderness Survival Guide provides jumping distance - so the rulebooks answered Hussar's question (for non-barbarian, non-acrobat PCs) in 1986.)</p><p></p><p>The idea that all this must be created before play is absurd. How many adventures have been written in which there are tables with mugs on them? Hundreds, probably thousands? How many of those adventures specified rules for breaking the mugs in question? Few or none. But since 1974 it has been a completely legitimate action declaration for a player to say "I throw the mug to the ground so that it shatters and makes a bang". How is the success of that action to be determined? In OD&D and B/X there are no rules. In AD&D the GM has to choose whether to use the "fall", "normal blow" or "crushing blow" column of the item saving throw table (on DMG p 80 - another counter-example to your claim upthread that this is all about AC and hit points), to decide whether the character's to hit and/or damage bonus for STR is a penalty to the saving throw, etc.</p><p></p><p>As [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] has stated upthread, the whole premise of an RPG is that the players aren't limited in their action declarations to certain preset moves. And the GM is expected to adjudicate novel action declarations as part-and-parcel of running the game. Many players of RPGs call this aspect of GMing "improvisation". Being able to do it effectively is a core GMing skill.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6466478, member: 42582"] Yet this objective is not stated anywhere. The AD&D PHB says this about the objective of D&D (pp 7, 8, 18): [indent]Into this world of weird monsters, strange peoples, multitudinous states, and fabulous treasures . . . stride fearless adventurers - you and your fellow players. Inexperienced and of but small power at first, by dint of hard fighting and clever deeds, these adventurers advance in ability to become forces to be reckoned with . . . By means of group co-operation and individual achievement, and adventurer can become ever more powerful. . . . There is no "winner", no fnal objective, and the campaign grows and changes as it matures. . . . [O]ne player must serve as the [I]Dungeon Master[/I], the shaper of the fantasy milieu . . . The other participants become [I]adventurers [/I]by creating characters to expore the fantastic world and face all of its challenges - monsters, magic and unnamed menaces. . . . [E]ach character begins at the bottom of his or her chosen class . . . By successfully meeting the challenges posed, they gain [I]experience[/I] and move upwards in power, just as actual paying experience really increases paying skill. Imagination, intelligence, problem solving ability, and memory are all continually exercised by participants in the game. . . . As players build the experience level of their characters and go forth seeking ever greater challenges, they must face stronger monsters and more difficult problems of other sorts . . . Skilled players always make a point of knowing what they are doing, i.e. they have an objective. They co-operate . . . in order to gain their ends. . . . The approach you wish to take to the game, how you believe you can most successfully meet the challenges which it poses, and which role you desire to play are dictated by character class[/indent] The objective that this present is one of increasing your character's power by successfully and skilfully meeting the challenges posed by the game (through the medium of the Dungeon Master). Class dictates the role adopted to meet those challenges, but there is no suggestion that class either (i) changes the nature of the challenges, nor (ii) determines what counts as successfully meeting them. And the DMG experience rules are class-neutral (ie all classes equally gain experience for defeating monsters and for finding treasure). I think that Gygax and Moldvay are better authorities than you as to what RPGing [I]really[/I] is about, or how classic D&D is [I]meant[/I] to be played. Neither you nor anyone else is under any obligation to follow their advice, but you can't just ignore what they wrote while setting yourself up as some authority on the true nature of the game. With respect, this is all just verbiage. I'm not sure that "conformed to the players' description based on what the game can do in its preset design" is even a meaningful phrase of English. I certainly don't know what it means. (For a start, the game can't [I]do[/I] anything - it is neither an agent nor a machine.) I presented a concrete ingame situation: a player wants his/her PC to smash a winch mechanism using a hammer and piton, so that a portcullis will drop rapidly to block some onrushing orcs. [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] also presented a concrete situation - a player wants his/her PC to jump over a pit. You have not explained how either situation is to be adjudicated, nor pointed to any rule in any AD&D rulebook that would answer the question. (The Wilderness Survival Guide provides jumping distance - so the rulebooks answered Hussar's question (for non-barbarian, non-acrobat PCs) in 1986.) The idea that all this must be created before play is absurd. How many adventures have been written in which there are tables with mugs on them? Hundreds, probably thousands? How many of those adventures specified rules for breaking the mugs in question? Few or none. But since 1974 it has been a completely legitimate action declaration for a player to say "I throw the mug to the ground so that it shatters and makes a bang". How is the success of that action to be determined? In OD&D and B/X there are no rules. In AD&D the GM has to choose whether to use the "fall", "normal blow" or "crushing blow" column of the item saving throw table (on DMG p 80 - another counter-example to your claim upthread that this is all about AC and hit points), to decide whether the character's to hit and/or damage bonus for STR is a penalty to the saving throw, etc. As [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] has stated upthread, the whole premise of an RPG is that the players aren't limited in their action declarations to certain preset moves. And the GM is expected to adjudicate novel action declarations as part-and-parcel of running the game. Many players of RPGs call this aspect of GMing "improvisation". Being able to do it effectively is a core GMing skill. [/QUOTE]
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