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With the Holy Trinity out, let's take stock of 5E
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<blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 6467807" data-attributes="member: 3192"><p>This is the heart of D&D as it was designed. It's also at the heart of enabling players to game D&D as a game, not engage in a collaborative story creation. If you don't know it, that's fine. It was word of mouth when I grew up in the 80's and the expected act of play by DMs and players. It begins with understanding role playing wasn't understood as improvisation and that games weren't about improvising either. I don't believe you know your history and going off what you believe is roleplaying from the past 20 years or so. All of the countless creation of books and modules weren't published in order to make a "no pre-existing material necessary" improv game. That's a hole in design, not proof of status as an "RPG" (aka storygame).</p><p></p><p>I am providing proof to your questions. How could publishing <em>Vampire the Masquerade</em> be so nose snubbing to the whole hobby in 1990 when it titled its game a "storytelling game" if, as from your point of view, all games were about improvising collectively? Why was there such a collective uproar from the D&D crowd? Because playing a game isn't storytelling to begin with.</p><p></p><p>Two or more people tell a story. It doesn't matter if these are designer storytellers, "GM" (story leader) storytellers, or player storytellers. They are <em>necessarily</em> in conflict (as the theory goes). A mechanic is used like dice or rock-scissors-paper to determine whose story is used in the larger story (that "game" is often used is a misnomer). The conflict is "resolved". Needless to say none of this actually occurs in a game.</p><p></p><p>These are conflict resolution - Edwards' narrative resolution mechanics. Narrative is always what is going on in his theory because he doesn't believe in games or game play, only story telling. His theory is the seemingly endless act of usurping the terms of the prior with the latter. He and his faithful are openly revolutionaries. How then can his theory be "the way everyone has always thought it was done"?</p><p></p><p>Actual game mechanics are the rules realized, the pattern. Dice are rolled to realize a result inherent in their design, the odds. They do not resolve conflicts between players. They express results of a the code they are used to represent. Usually a game's code is created by a designer. In the case of D&D and Mastermind the code is created by a referee prior to play behind a screen. And yes, it must never be changed after play begins so players can actually game it. </p><p></p><p>It's not the reliable expression of an underlying pattern if we need to use that expression on a map. Yes, we can see there is one. For the Jenga game on its own the retention of the tower turn to turn is enough for playing a balanced game. As a randomizer in an RPG like D&D it doesn't work. </p><p></p><p>Look at the context, the D&D faithful of course. Check your history.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="howandwhy99, post: 6467807, member: 3192"] This is the heart of D&D as it was designed. It's also at the heart of enabling players to game D&D as a game, not engage in a collaborative story creation. If you don't know it, that's fine. It was word of mouth when I grew up in the 80's and the expected act of play by DMs and players. It begins with understanding role playing wasn't understood as improvisation and that games weren't about improvising either. I don't believe you know your history and going off what you believe is roleplaying from the past 20 years or so. All of the countless creation of books and modules weren't published in order to make a "no pre-existing material necessary" improv game. That's a hole in design, not proof of status as an "RPG" (aka storygame). I am providing proof to your questions. How could publishing [I]Vampire the Masquerade[/I] be so nose snubbing to the whole hobby in 1990 when it titled its game a "storytelling game" if, as from your point of view, all games were about improvising collectively? Why was there such a collective uproar from the D&D crowd? Because playing a game isn't storytelling to begin with. Two or more people tell a story. It doesn't matter if these are designer storytellers, "GM" (story leader) storytellers, or player storytellers. They are [I]necessarily[/I] in conflict (as the theory goes). A mechanic is used like dice or rock-scissors-paper to determine whose story is used in the larger story (that "game" is often used is a misnomer). The conflict is "resolved". Needless to say none of this actually occurs in a game. These are conflict resolution - Edwards' narrative resolution mechanics. Narrative is always what is going on in his theory because he doesn't believe in games or game play, only story telling. His theory is the seemingly endless act of usurping the terms of the prior with the latter. He and his faithful are openly revolutionaries. How then can his theory be "the way everyone has always thought it was done"? Actual game mechanics are the rules realized, the pattern. Dice are rolled to realize a result inherent in their design, the odds. They do not resolve conflicts between players. They express results of a the code they are used to represent. Usually a game's code is created by a designer. In the case of D&D and Mastermind the code is created by a referee prior to play behind a screen. And yes, it must never be changed after play begins so players can actually game it. It's not the reliable expression of an underlying pattern if we need to use that expression on a map. Yes, we can see there is one. For the Jenga game on its own the retention of the tower turn to turn is enough for playing a balanced game. As a randomizer in an RPG like D&D it doesn't work. Look at the context, the D&D faithful of course. Check your history. [/QUOTE]
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