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With the Holy Trinity out, let's take stock of 5E
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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6468087" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>It was considered so nose snubbing because Vampire players looked at D&D players and said, "Guys, you aren't actually roleplaying - you're playing a tactical war-game". Basically, Vampire players treated D&D players pretty much the identically same way that those who don't like 4e treat 4e players. Things don't change that much.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok, there's the likely culprit. When everyone else uses conflict resolution, we mean it as mechanics used to determine events in the game - combat mechanics are conflict resolution. A Bend Bars check to break a lock is conflict resolution. Perhaps a better term might be event resolution, but, meh, not a big deal. Again, you are picking some pretty idiosyncratic definitions and creating barriers to being understood because you are using terms significantly differently than the way they are generally understood.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is outright false. Loads and loads of games have two players rolling dice to determine the outcome of events. War-games galore have this. Simplifying D&D and RPG's down to the level of Mastermind is absurd. It's like comparing Football, with it's bajillion rules, to Dodgeball and then claiming Baseball isn't a sport because the strike zone is different depending on the umpire.</p><p></p><p>It's not the reliable expression of an underlying pattern if we need to use that expression on a map. Yes, we can see there is one. For the Jenga game on its own the retention of the tower turn to turn is enough for playing a balanced game. As a randomizer in an RPG like D&D it doesn't work. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Dude, I lived that history. Other people have told you that no one ever considered GURPS to be not a role playing game. I'd even go so far as to say GURPS fits your model better than D&D since GURPS mechanics are far more comprehensive, particularly if you are comparing AD&D 1e to GURPS. That was the point of GURPS. GURPS is certainly not a story game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6468087, member: 22779"] It was considered so nose snubbing because Vampire players looked at D&D players and said, "Guys, you aren't actually roleplaying - you're playing a tactical war-game". Basically, Vampire players treated D&D players pretty much the identically same way that those who don't like 4e treat 4e players. Things don't change that much. Ok, there's the likely culprit. When everyone else uses conflict resolution, we mean it as mechanics used to determine events in the game - combat mechanics are conflict resolution. A Bend Bars check to break a lock is conflict resolution. Perhaps a better term might be event resolution, but, meh, not a big deal. Again, you are picking some pretty idiosyncratic definitions and creating barriers to being understood because you are using terms significantly differently than the way they are generally understood. This is outright false. Loads and loads of games have two players rolling dice to determine the outcome of events. War-games galore have this. Simplifying D&D and RPG's down to the level of Mastermind is absurd. It's like comparing Football, with it's bajillion rules, to Dodgeball and then claiming Baseball isn't a sport because the strike zone is different depending on the umpire. It's not the reliable expression of an underlying pattern if we need to use that expression on a map. Yes, we can see there is one. For the Jenga game on its own the retention of the tower turn to turn is enough for playing a balanced game. As a randomizer in an RPG like D&D it doesn't work. Dude, I lived that history. Other people have told you that no one ever considered GURPS to be not a role playing game. I'd even go so far as to say GURPS fits your model better than D&D since GURPS mechanics are far more comprehensive, particularly if you are comparing AD&D 1e to GURPS. That was the point of GURPS. GURPS is certainly not a story game. [/QUOTE]
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